(e 



Proceedings of 

STATE FORESTERS' CONFERENCE. 



SENATE CHAMBER, HARRISBURQ, PA. 



DECEMBER 8 AND 9, 1920. 



PENNSYLVANIA DEPARTMENT OF FORESTRY 



GDFFORD PINCHOT, COMMISSIONER, 



Bulletin No. 23 



1922. 



PENNSYLVANIA DEPARTMENT OF FORESTRY 



STATE FOREST COMMISSION 
Gifford Pinchot, Commissioner of Forestry. 

Edward Bailey. 

Henry W. Shoemaker. 

Mrs. John L. Lawrence. 

(Mary Flynn Lawrence.) 



Robert Y. Stuart, Deputy Commissioner of Forestry. 

A. E. Rupp, Chief, Bureau of Lands. 

Lewis E. Staley, Chief, Bureau of Operation. 

George H. Wirt, Chief, Bureau of Protection. 

John W. Keller, Chief, Bureau of Silviculture. 

W. E. Montgomery, Chief, Office of Maintenance. 

A. O. Vorse, Chief, Office of Information. 

Joseph S. Tllick, Chief, Office of Research. 

E. A. Ziegler, Director, State Forest Academy. 



Proceedings of 

STATE FORESTERS' CONFERENCE, 



SENATE CHAMBER, HARRISBURG, PA. 
DECEMBER 8 AND 9, 1920. 



PENNSYLVANIA DEPARTMENT OF FORESTRY 



GIFFORD PINCHOT, COMMISSIONER, 



Bulletin No. 23 
1922. 




*njWARt OF CONGRESS I 
PtCElVED 

MAYl 1922 

OOCUMtNTS U.v.olON 



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^ INDEX. 



Oo 



Bazeley W. A. L 43, 110, 113 

Besley F. W 48, 107, 113 

Cheyiiey E. G 108, 110 

Cox William T 22, 83, 91, 105 

Gaskill Alfred 7, 60, 78, 98, 111, 116 

Greeley Colonel W. B 11 

Guthrie W. A 23, 34 

Harrington C. L 40, 56, 77, 106 

Hastings W. G 36, 106, 111, 115 

Holmes J. S 9, 69 

Howard W. G 70, 79, 105 

Hutchins M. C &4, 78 

Jones 11. C ; 58 

Lovejoy P. S . .67, 76, 91, 105 

Morrill W. J ■■. . T.Vr. • 42, 79, 98, 105 

Olcott Governor Benjamin W 7, 18, 43, 87, 98 

Peters J. G , 19, 68. 83, 87, 105, 114 

Pi!K-.hot Hon. Gilford 5, 7, 18, 23, 24, 26, 33, 34, 

35, 48, 68, 98, 105, 107, 109, 
114, 115 

Rothrock Dr. J. T 9, 37 

Sanders J. G 88 

Secrest Edmond 39, 70 

Sproul Governor William C 5, 7 

Stuart R. Y 9 

Wallace John H 9, 23, 33, 38 

Wirt George H 71 

Woodruff G. W 34, 51 



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Senate Chamber, 
Harrisburg, Pa., Wednesday morning, 
December 8, 1920. 



STATE FORESTERS' CONFERENCE. 



The Honorable Gifford Pinchot presiding. 



Mr. PINCHOT. The conference will please come to order. 

I take very great pleasure, indeed, in presenting to you as the first speaker, and 
as the representative of the state of Pennsylvania, our governor. As you gentlemen 
doubtless all know, the recent progress of forestry in this state is directly due to 
the position Governor Sproul has taken in the matter, and the interest that he has 
shown. Consequently I present him to you, not only as the executive of our state, 
but as one first-class forester. (Applause.) 

GOVERNOR WILLIAM C. SPROUL. Mr. Chairman imd gentlemen : I am very 
glad to welcome you to Pennsylvania, and especially into this cliamber of the senate. 
I feel that I have much more of a right to welcome people here after having sewed 
in this body for twenty-two years, than I have anywhere else in the state. I am glad 
that you are here and glad that you are here on the particular business for which 
you have come together. I regard it as one of the most important propositions that 
wo have before us, and one so vital to the country that unless we give prompt 
attention, real attention, devoted attention to the problems surrounding it, we will 
find ourselves before long in a position that we will not only be uncomfortable, but 
will be really reprehensible and a great reflection upon the efficacy of a democratic 
gevernment. Pennsylvania, as you all know, you know very much more about this 
subject than I do, Pennsylvania used to be a great lumber-producing state. Along 
in the fifties it led the entire country in the production of wood products ; today it 
produces enly a very small proportion of the amount that it uses, and that in 
spite of the fact that we have here in the center of the state and scattered throughout 
the state an area larger than the entire state of New Jersey, which is only valuable 
and only available for growing trees. 

This state started a program of forest conservation quite early under Doctor 
Rothrock, who, bless his heart, is still here to see the progress of the work that lie 
started. We began with a program in Pennsylvania many years ago, and we have 
made some progress. The state owns something over a million acres of land, and 
we have five or six million other acres which we have and which we propose to 
iirquire just as soon as we possibly can. We reorganized our Department of Forestry 
and we were fortunate enough here in Pennsylvania to get a man who had the 
vision, and the energy, and the ambition, and desire to serve. It impels him to 
Bacrifice his own leisure, which he is amply able to enjoy, and to come back into 



6 

Uie public service aud to give it his tiiiu: and attention as he is doing. We were 
fortunately able to commandeer the services of Mr. Pinchot. (Applause.) I had to 
argue with him a little. There was not much that I could offer him in the way of 
attractiveness except in holding out to him the opportunity and the vision and lot 
him see through my own eyes the vision tliat I had and to assure him of the hearty 
support and the cooperation of the state administration, something he did not 
believe he would get at the beginning, although he had no doubt regarding my own 
position ; but he did not believe that the state was sufficiently aroused to the im- 
portance of the subject to make the things which he had in mind practicable or 
possible within a reasonable time limit. We have nine million people in Pennsyl- 
vania. We have big problems. We have a bigger dountry population, that is if you 
take out the one great city, or even taking out the two foremost, a greater population 
than any other state. New York has a population of ten million six hundred 
thousand, and of that number six million are in their great metropolis, leaving 
four million six hundred thousand in the state outside. We have over seven million 
ill Pennsylvania outside of our great city. AVe have one hundred and sixty-five towns 
in the state of over five thousand population, and these places require help in 
this particular line. 

ITiis stream here in Harrisburg used to be the greatest rafting stream that the 
world ever knew. The amount of lumber that would come down, the amount that 
has been floated out of the Susquehanna would amaze us all if the real figures were 
presented. One of my predecessors. Governor Bigler, came down from Clearfield 
County, his home, to his duties at Harrisburg upon his own raft of logs, time and 
again, the easiest means of transportation over the hills and through the valleys 
of Pennsylvania I guess at that time. We are trying to make rural transportation 
easier. W^e are trying to make it possible for the people to get to these forests 
that we have. We have two hundred and sixty-five thousand acres of forest in one 
block up in the northern part of the state, and where within my recollection the 
bald hills were devastated by forest fires are now reall.v creditable growths of new 
timber, which we are trying to protect. We are paying particular attention to 
this fire problem. In the past we have only played around the edges of that situation. 
The state would buy land and try to do something on it, and then either by care- 
lessness or accident a forest-fire would come along and destroy not only all that 
had been done but render the ground fruitless for some time t© come. We are going 
to battle with that problem in a better-organized way. 

One of the things that I tliink is most important, and especially in view of the 
fact that all of our states are not so fortunate as Pennsylvania is in having land 
which is available for timber-growing in such large quantities as we have, one of 
the important things is that we have got a national forest program of some sort, 
a program which will not invade our rights or prerogatives. Goodness knows, we 
have had enough of that kind of business. The states have been ridden over con- 
siderably by various programs^^ of national intervention in the past, but we can get 
a cooperative plan w]ier( by the nation can help the states, and tlien we can help 
the national policy. If we do this we can help not only those states which are 
fortunate in having lumber, in having timber to preserve and protect, and conserve 
that which they have. I moan by conservation in that case, by providing a plan by 
which timber may be cut without destroying everything that there is for the 
present and for the future as well, that we may help tliose things which are not so 
located or have not the soil or conditions which will make them forest-growing 
states, and also help those states which are capable of reforestation to carry out 
their program and make them a groat reservoir for timber in the future. 



I hope that j-our deliberations here will be entirely successful and that much 
good will come of them. We are planning to do some real constructive things in 
our forests here in Pennsylvania, and I hope that the whole country will awaken 
to the necessity of doing this. We do not want tliis country to look like some of 
those lands over in the Orient, over in Asia, whei-e the destruction of the forest 
has really meant the destruction of living conditions throughout those countries, 
the elimination of civilization almost. I believe it is almost that important. We 
want to go on here and take care of the state and make a great policy by which 
those who come after us may benefit by our foresight and our patriotic planning 
for the future. I really believe that it will have a great effect upon the whole 
life and development of our people. I am sure that we want to continue here to 
be real fine, clean-cut people, and not resolve ourselves into a nation of knotty butt- 
cuts. I thank you. (Applause.) 

Mr. PINCnOT. I told you lie was a good forester, didn't IV 

There is going to be up in the Department of Forestry tonight an infonnal smoker 
and we are going to have baked apples and ginger bread. If you find it possible to 
come over there and talk to these fellows I know they would enjoy it. 

GOVERNOR SPROUL. Baked apples and ginger bread, why that sounds almost 
like old times. 

Mr. riNCHOT. We should be very glad to have you come over. 

GOVERNOR SPROUL. Well, if I do not get a better invitation in the mean- 
time I will probably be around. (Laughter.) 

Mr. PINCHOT. Gentlemen, I should like to hold the chair long enough to 
ask for nominations for a permanent chairman of this conference. 

Mr. ALFRED (^ASKILL, State Forester, New Jersey. I believe that this 
group of foresters is very highly honored by the presence of the governor of one of 
the far western states. He has evidenced his interest in the forestry question 
by staying over from another weighty gathering to take part in this. I should 
like to name Governor Benjamin W. Olcott, of Oregon, as chairman. 

Mr. PINCHOT. The chair declares the nominations closed. 

Governor Benjamin W. Olcott was unanimously elected as chairman of the con- 
ference. 

Mr. F»INCHOT. Governor Olcott, will you kindly take the chair? 

GOVERNOR BEN W. OLCOTT presiding. 

The CHAIRMAN. I feel highly honored in being made your chairman. 1 
feel, however, that an apology is rather due you on the arbitrary manner in which 
I was forced upon you by Mr. Pinchot. It is rather a misnomer to call me a forester, 
although there is no one in this room that is more interested in forestry than I. 
Out in our state the governor is ex-officio chairman of the state board of forestry, 
and in that manner I am a forester. We have seven members on that board ; two 
of them are ex-officio, the chief executive and the dean of the state school of forestry. 



bregon, as you know, is one of the big limber states of the Union. 1 understand, 
at least we claim it, that Oregon today has mure standing timber than any other 
state in the Union. It has one-fifth of tlie standing timber of tlie United States. 
It now stands third in tlie production of timber, and large manufacturers of timber 
products inform me tJiat in their opinion it will soon occupy first place in the pro- 
duction of timber. 

I came here to attend in a dual capacity, first the Governors' Conference which 
was held here December 1st, 2nd and 3rd, and to attend on behalf of the State 
Board of Forestry of Oregon this conference of state foresters. I am very frank 
to admit that I know little of forestry in its practical application, but I am very 
greatly interested in it. I might say that we are trying a little innovation out 
there in the way of patroling forest property, perhaps some of you have heard of 
it, which was inaugurated in 1919, and came about in a peculiar manner. With 
your permission I will just take a moment to tell of its origin. 

We have an annual celebration out in Oregon, which is called the Rose Festival. 
To add a little pep to the occasion in 1919 the Air Service at San Francisco, under 
the control of Colonel H. H. Arnold, was requested to send up some planes, or 
"ships" as the aviators call them, to attend that festival. Airplanes at that time 
were not as common as they are now, hardly any one now looks up at an airplane, 
but at that time they aroused great interest, particularly in tlie northwest We 
have large training fields in the west, particularly in California, for training 
aviators for war purposes, and their personnel remained intact. These planes came 
up from Mather field, which is twelve miles out of Sacramento, and for practically 
the first time crossed the Siskiyon Mountains, the Chinese wall which looms 
five tliousand feet high between the states of California and Oregon, forming the 
northern boundary of California and the southern boundary of Oregon. The Rose 
Festival had extended me an invitation to ride with that caravan of ships from 
Salem to Portland, a distance of fifty miles. I had never ridden in an airplane, 
had no desire to ride in an airplane ; I have three little babies at home, and two 
of them are twins, and that aspect loomed high on the hoi-izon. The newspaper 
boys around the Capitol were continually asking me, "Mr. Olcott, what are you 
going to do with that invitation?" I always passed the buck. I made no definite 
answer. So tlie night before the planes were due to land in Salem, I had been out 
to a little party, and coming in about one o'clock, found a note on tlie telephone 
from one of the local newspaper boys, a good friend of mine, asking me to call him 
up, which I did. I might have known better, as he said, "What are you going to 
do about that airplane invitation? These people are due here tomorrow." This 
young lad had been a service boy. I said, "Dick, what would you do?" "What 
would I do? Why I would give my right arm and one hundred dollars in cash for 
>our opportunity to ride tomorrow." I said, "Well, then, I guess I have got to be 
a good sport and go through with it. You can say I will accept it." When the 
planes landed I was tliere with my little family. They put me into a powerful 
plane and I tliought that tli»t was the last time I would ever greet my family. 
I arrived in Portland unharmed. I became well acquainted with the commanding 
officer, Colonel Watson, and the boys in charge during their few days' stay there. 
Colonel Watson, the last day of his stay, said, "Mr, Olcott, I think you rather 
enjoy flying. Let me take you back with me to Salem." I said, "Mrs. Olcott is 
the boss. I will ask her." Her reply was, "You can fly any place with Colonel 
Watson." So we started next morning for Salem. He didn't stop there but 
went on to Albany for lunch. Then he said, "You might as well go on down to 
Cottage Gro\o. We are going to stay* there tonight." Arriving there he said, 
"Come on down to the California line." I was interested and went down. 



9 

That night in the hotel, he said, "I have a good scheme to suggest to you. 
Come on down and see Colonel Arnold, our boss. We have a little plan to 
propose to you." I said, "All right, if I can get out of the state without a 
telegram reaching me from Mrs. Olcott." When we reached Ashland we had 
to wait there because of the clouds and fog that enshrouded, surmounted the 
mountains. We had to lay over until noon to get over. I get out of the state 
all right. We landed at Mather field, and Colonel Arnold flew up from San 
Francisco to meet us. We there arranged to install if possible an airpUme 
service for the fii"e protection of Oregon forests tlirough the airplane system. 
As the result of that conference they sent up macliines which operated in 11)19, 
For 1920 we made extensive preparations. The government defrayed the expenses 
of this. The state was ready however to defray a certain amount, and as the 
result we got ten planes with headquarters in three points in Oregon. Last 
year the whole state was charted and cross-sectioned. The planes were r-lgged 
with wireless radio, and the moment the observer sighted a fire it was immediately 
wired into headquarters. The forest service now has the forests of Oregon 
pretty well lined with patrols, so it is not a hard task to at once see and reach 
the scenes of these fires. The airplane service in Oregon has been a success. 

Mr. .JOHN H. WALLACE. Jr., of Alabama. Mr. Chairman : I suggest that 
we proceed to elect a secretary of the conference, and I place in nomination 
the name of J. S. Holmes, of North Carolina. 

Mr. J. S. HOLMES, State Forester of North Carolina. Mr. Chairman, I 
should prefer to see Mr. Stuart made secretary, he is more closely associated 
with the organization. I would like to nominate Mr. Stuart, of Pennsylvania. 

Mr. WALLACE. I want to say the many qualifications of Dr. Holmes have 
been elaborately discussed and he has been agreed upon as the ideal man for 
the job. 

Mr. STUART. If I may I should like to withdraw in favor of Mr. Holmes. 

Mr. WALLACE. The name of Dr. Holmes, of North Carolina, is the only 
name before the house, and I move that nominations be closed and that Dr. 
Holmes be unanimously elected as secretary of the conference. 

The motion was seconded and unanimously adopted. 

The CHAIRMAN. In the organization, gentlemen, is there anything else that 
you feel needs attention at this time? 

The next number on the program will be an address by Dr. J. T. Rothrock, of 
the Pennsylvania State Forest Commission. (Applause.) 

Dr. J. T. ROTHROCK. To the gentlemen representing the- forestry interests 
of other states : We are glad to welcome you here in order that we may receive 
from you the benefits of your experience in forest restoration, and also to offer you 
some facts which may have grown out of our efforts and which may be equally 
helpful to you. 

In 1855 approximately large portions of the northern and northwestern counties 
of the state were in what might be called a forest condition. Splendid white pine 
and hemlock predominated in our evergreen silva, and in our hardwoods we had 



10 

the oaks, the hickories, the beeches, the birches and the maples. I know that I 
am speaking the truth when I say to you that white pine, the old-fashioned cork 
white pine, sometimes attainwl a diameter of six feet or over. This I know 
from personal obsen-ation and measurement. That land had been sold out by 
the state originally, with all its wealth of timber upon it, for twenty-six and two- 
third cents an acre; and the state is glad today to purchase that same area back, 
deprived of its timber, at an average price of two dollars and forty cents an acre, 
in order that at least six million acres of land may be prevented from going in'^o 
a desert condition. There are men living today who remember when the Tevenue 
to the state from those forests reached up almost to tliirty million dollars annually, 
exclusive of the wages paid to the workmen. From the town of Clearfield north 
to the New York state line, a distance of about seventy miles, and from the moutli 
of the Sinnemahoning west to Warren, a distance of one hundred miles as the 
crow flies, was an almost unbroken wilderness of pine and hemlock. They have 
seen one-seventh of the state pass from a productive to an unproductive condition, 
and began to ask themselves '*'What is to be the ultimate outcome from such a 
policy?" In 1886 the Pennsylvania Forestry Association began its useful life. 
"J^ho act of 1893 called for the appointment of a commission to examine into and 
report upon the forest conditions of the state. The report of that commission was 
printed in 1S95, and from that report grew a division of forestry in 1895 which 
was associated with the Department of Agriculture. That division of forestry, 
by legislative exactment, was subsequently elevated to the rank of a department, 
witli equal and coordinate powers with the other established departments of the 
state. And if may be said that , the first real progress in forestry in this s<;ate 
dated from the period when forestry was elevated to the rank of a department. 

Whatever may be the relation of forestry to other states, it is clear tliat to this 
state it is of the first importance. It is second to no otiier interest here, a fact 
which is now being slowly recognized. It is safe to say that there are five hundred 
thousand acres of land which either are already abandoned or ought to be abandoned 
as farms on which agriculture has been, under old conditions, attempted and failed. 
That land should at once be returned to forests until increase of population and 
of fertility would restore it to production of food, for that demand will surely come. 
It is inevitable. Then in addition to this we Ijave at least six or seven million 
acres with no known mineral contents, suited only to production of timber. On 
these facts I base my claim that forestry in Pennsylvania is a foundation interest 
on which our permanent prosperity must rest. I insist upon this claim because I 
think it is high time to call a halt upon the reckless appropriation^ of public moneys 
for purposes which are purely ornamental. I wish to offend no sensibilities, but 
1- can not refrain, in order to give point to my statement, from saying that in this 
splendid building untold thousands of dollars have been expended jupon gilt and 
glitter which might have been better spent in preventing the annual forest fires 
which burn up the wealth and productive power of the commonwealth. You can 
not rear a solid superstructure upon an insufficient foundation. The friends of 
forestry during a long period of agitation have been pleading for the very life of the 
state. Fortunately', the reaction has come, for the first time we have a governor 
who has in clarion tones told the people that forestry is to be one of the issues 
upon which he means to give character to his administration, and I say this with- 
out disparagement to the administrations that have within recent years gone 
before him. 

There are counties in Pennsylvania that stand on the brink of bankruptcy because 
their only sources of wealth went with the timber which in imprudent haste they 
tore from their steep, poor hillsides. I commend this statement to the attention of 
those from other states who may have just such issues before them. 



11 

But there are other issues. Two legislatures turned down applications for small 
sums asked to clear up small, healthful areas on the state lands in order that a 
start might be made in inducing those of our population who wePe breaking down 
but not yet ill to go out and camp. It required no particular vision t(jj recogni'-je 
that the time was ripe for the movement. Of all the health-restoring resources at 
our command, pure, fresh air is not only the most effective, but it is also the cheapest 
and the most abundant. Permit me, gentlemen, to remind you that in the changes 
which are now shaping themsielves in the publio mind this is one of the things you 
must face and connect with your forestry issues. Grasping large areas by clubs 
and 'persons of wealth for exclusive purposes is near its limit. There must be outing 
grounds for the masses. Already there are thousands of camping permits given 
annually upon our state lands. 

They are not only a help to the campers, but they make friends for the forestry 
movement. They become guardians of the public domain. 

Upon our higher hills suid mountain ranges there remains a vast iwater power 
unutilized. Growing scarcity of fuel is sure to call attention to it. Some of our 
important towns receive from these streams an abundant supply of pure water for 
the purpose of daily life, water which is above reproach, for there is no pollution 
above the heads. 

But back of every proposition which I have stated in this conservative movement 

is the one source of all the restoration and wise utilization of living, healthful 

productive forests •n every acre of land which can not produce a better crop. 
There never will coijae a time when this statement can be denied. 

We belie.ve that state forestry here is in good condition. More than a million 
acres have been purchased by the state. We have a loyal band of workers in our 
forestry department and a human dynamo at the head of (it. Our united efforts 
are heading straight toward the unpurchased acres which [have not yet been placed 
under stat« control. 

I should be unjust if I did not also call special attention to the morale and 
efficiency of our band of foresters, educated ,by the state for the care of state forests. 
If there exists anywhere a finer body of young public servants, I have not seen them. 
There is something in the idea of setting apart for state service a body of young 
men and educating them specifically for that. The idea was grasped by our govern- 
ment in founding its military and naval aoademies. A sort of fraternal rclatio'n 
grows up among tliose students which binds them firmly in the public interest. 
(Applause.) 

The CHAIRMAN. We will now have an address by Colonel W. D. Greeley, 
of the United States Forest Scr\Tice, on "The Nation in the National Forest 
Policy." 

COLONEL W. B. GREELEY. Gentlemen of tlie conference: There is little 
argument among thoughtful men that provision for a continuous and sufficient 
supply of timber in the United States is one of the real economic problems which 
must be worked out by the present generation. Nor can there be much debate 
that sufficient timber f«r the future can be assured only by general reforestation 
of logged-ofl! land. Three-fourths of our primeviJ forests are gone; and the United 



12 

States, like the nations of the Old World before it, must pass from the mining 
of virgin forests to the harvesting of grown timber crops. We are a ipeople of 
timber users, and by one means or another we must become a people of timber 
growers. 

Never before in the history of the United States has the need for reforestation 
been so widely recognized. It has been bi'ought home to many American 
manufacturers by real shortages, not merely fluctuations of the market, in the 
valuable woods essential to their industries. It has been brought home to the 
newspaper publishers of the country through the shortage and high cost of print 
paper. It has been brought home, pei'liaps most acutely of all, to the million or 
more average citizens who want to build their own homes but have been unable 
to afford it. It has been brought home, no less, to forest industries which look 
ahead for a supply ef raw material vhich will justify their investments in manu- 
facturing plant.s and who realize that virgin timber is not much longer to be had. 
I have recently visited a large corporation in tiie south which has definitely em- 
barked upon the reforestation of some three hundred thousand acres of southern 
pine lands, as they are cut, to afford a permanent supply of pulpwood for large 
paper plants after the \'irgin timber has been used up. 

As a matter of fact, we are already using large quantities of second-gr»wth 
timber. There are considerable areas in the South Atlantic states which are now 
yielding their third cutting of pine lumber. In our northern coniferous forests, 
holdings are not infrequent from which logs or pulpwood have been cut during 
three generations and which are still well-stocked timber lands. But the critical 
point in the whole situation is that, notwithstanding such instances as I have 
cited, the United States is taking timber from its forests three or four times 
as fast as timber is being grown. These few words put the problem in a nut- 
shell. As against a steady shrinkage in the stocks of virgin timber, there are 
enormous acres of idle, logged-off land which are increasing by the millions of 
acres every year. Instead of haphazard second growth or no second growth at 
all, the nation must find some way to bring about plan-wise reforestation on 
all cut-over lands suited to timber growth, if its enconomic necessities are to be 
supplied adequately. 

How shall this end be accomplished? Shall it be left entirely to economic 
forces, as many suggest, — to the law of supply and demand, to the enlightened 
self-ii<terest of the forest owiier who sees a profit or commercial advantage 
in reforestation ; or shall reforestation be assured by recognizing squarely that 
forest lands have the nature of public utilities and hence that the public shall 
exercise a voice in their management and use? 

The every-day incentives of business or personal interest will undoubtedly go 
part way in growing the timber which must be had to supply the requirements 
of this country. But they will only go part way. In the weighing of profits," 
enormous areas of timber-growing land would still be left idle. Furthermore, 
in many portions of the United States general reforestation is not possible without 
a lai-ge degree of public cooperation, indeed of public participation. Public 
aid must be had by the forest owners in controlling the high fire hazard attendant 
upon an inflammable investment which must be carried over a long period of 
time. Public aid must usually be had through an adjustment of taxation to the 
nature and growing period of forest crops. Farm crops would not be grown if they 
were taxed twice a week during the growing season. Nor can forest crops be 
generally growni if subject to the full burden of taxation thirty or forty times 
before they become marketable. 



18 

In the nature of things, therefore, reforestation can not be left wholly t© 
private initiative, although every just and reasonable encouragement should be 
given the forest wwner to utilisse it as a business opportunity. The public must, 
from the very nature of forest properties, be an active participant. The public 
must put around forest lands the conditions which, by and large, will permit 
their owners to grow successive crops of trees, namely, reasonable security 
from forest fireS, and taxation of the product when grown rather than of the 
product while growing. J:5ut the public should not and will not create those 
conditions favorable to reforestation unless it is assured that the forest owner 
makes good on his part, and that the land will actually be kept in the continuous 
production of timber which the public interest requires. 

In other words, I am convinced that to get general, plan-wise reforestation 
we must recognize that forest lands are public utilities, that they are subject 
to such forms and degrees of public control as needed to keep them continuously 
in timber crops, and that under the broad theory of equitable compensation appli- 
cable to public utilities generally, forest lands must receive such just and special 
considerations as will enable their owner to obtain a reasonable return while 
complying with the requirements put upon him in the public interest. This 
give-and-take principle, I believe, mus^t inspire our national forestry policy. 

At the same time the public should approach the forest owner as far as pos- 
sible in the spirit of assistance rather than of regulation. Every encouragement 
sliouki be given to the forest owner, by education and practical demonstration, 
to reforest his land by the ways and means suited to his timber and his require- 
ments. The well-tried incentives of competition and self-interest will accomplish 
much in referestation, as in most economic movements. If any one doubts this, 
let him go to Urania, Louisiana, and see the splendid demonstration of reforest- 
ation on forty-five thousand acres, brought about through the foresightedness of a 
lunibcrmau. Other examples could be cited a plenty in many different states. It 
should be the effort of the public to encourage just this sort of initiative, to give it 
wider opportunity and greater certainty of success, and to spread the gospel 
of reforestration bj' effective demonstration of its value. At the same time I believe 
that the public must clothe itself with the power and must exercise that power as 
need arises to see to it that no forest owner fails in keeping his land at work growing 
trees, once conditions are established which make that a reasonable undertaking 
on his part. 

What role should the nation itself, through the federal government, play in 
reforestration? There is every reason why the federal government should do 
everything that it can do effectively. The timber supply problem is a national one. 
It can no more be restricted to the limits of a state or any other locality than our 
food supply, our coal supply, our railroads, or our marine transport. Our most 
densely populated industrial states are dependent upon other parts of tlie country 
for from sixty to ninety per cent of the forest products which they consume. The 
farmers of the prairie states, who require on an average two thousand feet of 
lumber per year on each farm for normal improvements and upkeep, are totally 
dependent upon sources of supply outside of thedr own states. Nor, is it a national 
problem solely because a small percentage of our forest products are consumed 
within the state where they are grown. 

An assured supply of timber is a matter of national concern because it is vital 
to the itflndnrds nnd trnditions of .\mericau life. Witliont it tli(^ lioiiirs wu 



14 

need to maiutiun die family life and cnvMoumeut, which is oiie of the mo«t sacred 
of American institutions, can not be built. Without it tlie extension and im- 
provements of our basic national industry, agriculture, will be critically handi- 
cappi'd. Without it muny of our iiiosl distinctive manufacturing industries, like 
furniture making, and other industries of the most vital consequence, like our 
railroads, will sooner or later be seriausly impaired. Reforestation is distinctly a 
iiiatti'r of national concern, and the national governmunt should do everything it 
can to accomplish it. 

Through tlie vision of our leaders in conservation, chief among whom stand Pres- 
ident Roosevelt and present Forest Commissioner of Pennsylvania, Gifford Pinchot, 
the federal government took the first definite step toward an assured supply of 
timber adequate for the needs of the country through the creation of National 
Forests. Every day demonstrates more clearly the wisdom of this step and the need 
for National Forest ownership on a much larger scale. For nearly twenty years 
the National Forests have represented the only large element of stability in the 
whole timber situation. They have been administered through successive political 
changes with unwavering adherence to tlie principles of continuous productivity 
of forest lands, a sustained yield of timber, and the protection of streamflow and 
otlier public interests. Furthermore, every National Forest is like a settlement 
house in a tenement disti'ict. It becomes a center of demonstration and pi'actical 
education in forestry methods. Cooperative efforts among timberland owners for 
the prevention of forest fires grow up around it. In its demonstration of methods 
of cutting and growing timber, of disposing of fire-breeding slash, and of the actunl 
costs and results of forest practice it carries conviction to tlie forest owners 
round about, where mere argument would be fruitless. It will be true in the 
United States as it has been in France and Sweden that a corps of publicly owned 
forests under technical public administration is the pivotal point in national pro- 
gress toward tlie right use of forest lands. 



As the virgin foi-ests in private ownership are more and more widely depleted, 
the timbers of high quality like our old-growth white oak and yellow poplar, 
like the ship timbers sawn from virgin longleaf pine or Douglas fir, will become 
increasingly scarce and dear. The length of time required to produce such mate- 
rial by reforestation will largely preclude it as a feasible undertaking for the 
owner of private forest lands. This is an obligation to the industries of the 
country which the national government and the states may well assume, the pro- 
duction of highclass forest products requiring long periods of time, as it has been 
assumed by most of the governments of Europe. I know, for example, of no 
solution of our waning supply of old-growth hardwoods, which has become such 
a critical matter for many wood-using industries, so effective as large extension of 
l)ublicly-owned forests in the hardwood region. 



Every encouragement should be given to public forest ownership by our states, in 
line with the admirable stei>s already taken by such states as Pennsylvania, New 
York and Massachusetts. The field for public forest ownership is so vast tliat 
there is abundant opportunity for the maximum that both the states and the 
federal government can do. The United States contains eighty-odd million acres 
of idle forest land, whose original growth has been destroyed by logging or fire. 
Many of tliese areas can be restored to productive forests only by costly and arti- 
ficial methods. We still have many watersheds upon which manufacturing centers 
depend for sources of power, or large communities for domestic water, or agri- 
cultural regions for irrigation, or inland waterways for na\agability, upon which the 



15 . 

protectiou of water sources is still left almest wholly to chance. There is no more 
well-tried, clear-cut i-esponsibility which should be discharged by the federal govern- 
ment than the extension of the National Forests. I wish today that there were 
National Forests in the pineries of every one of our southern states. I doubt 
if any other single thing would more readily crystallize and carry forwai-d the 
reforestation of that region, with its wandcrful possibilities, or more efEectiveljr 
encourage the development of forestry work by the states themselves. I wish 
that we might have National Forests in ev(-ry distinctive forest region of the 
country, in order that tlie federal government might, through the real test of 
of local forest ownership, exert direct leadership in the reforestation of that region. 

It is impossible for the public to acquire all of the forest land in the United 
States. Four-fifths of our forests are in private ownership ; and we must reckon 
definitely that the major part of our forest-growing lands will remain in private 
ownership. What is the responsibility wf the national government as to tliese 
lands? Here as well the federal government should recognize its responsibility for 
doing everything in its power to meet the national need for timber; but we must 
recognize the practical limitations wliich determine what it can do effectively. As 
I have said before, we can not bring about general i-eforestation without recogniz- 
ing that forest lands have the character of public utilities. That means two 
things : first, that the owner of the land must comply with certain standards fixed 
by public agencies for keeping his land in continuous production ; and second, that 
the public shall create the conditions surrounding forest ownership which will make 
t\u' discharge of its obligation to the public fair and equitable. The two must go 
together. Regulation and equitable assistance to forest owners must emanate from 
the same authority. Else the risk will be incurred either of a public gratuity to 
a certain class of land owners without compensating return or of public confiscation 
of their propci'ty. 

To produce an adequate crop of timber on the average tract of forest land in 
the United States, three things must be done. First, the owner must be given 
an opportunity to obtain the benefit of a moderate tax while his crop of timber is 
being grown. Secondly, the owner must be protected from forest fires due to the 
negligence of his neighbor, either in leaving dangerous accumulations of slash or 
in failing to guard his land during dangerous seasons. He must be protected from 
the fire hazard created by railroads, campers or pedestrians, incendiarism, high- 
way traffic, or any other of the thousand and one possible sources of danger. An(^ 
third, he must in return for these specific measures of public assistance conforro 
with equitable requrirements as to cutting, slash disposal, and| fire protection on 
liis own land designed to keep it in timber growth. All tliree of these factors go 
logether and must be administered together. 

The power of taxation and the police powers upon which control of the forest 
fire hazard rests are definitely vested in the several states. It is hai'd for me to 
conceive of these powers being acquired or taken over by the federal government. 
Nor can I conceive of an effective scheme of reforestation under which these three 
integral and mutually essential functions of taxation, fire protection, and regula- 
tion are divided. The owner should not obtain the benefit of special forms of tax- 
ing timberland, designed to encourage reforestation, unless certain regulatory re- 
quirements are met. Fire protection and forest culture are so inextricably mingled 
as usually to be simply part and parcel of the same thing. In some sections, control 
of grazing is another fundamental of reforestation, leading us again into the field 
of local police authority. 

In plain terms, I can not conceive of an effective scheme of reforestation under 
which its component parts are divided between the federal government and the 



16 

states, with the national government, let us say, attempting to oxerciie regulatory 
powers while the state controls taxation and protection. Federal regulation of 
methods of cutting might readily enough be brought to naught unless completely 
and adequately supplemented by state laws and administration dealing with var- 
ious phases of the fire hazard; or might readily enough become confiscatory if 
the laws of the particular state did not give the forest owner an opportunity to 
obtain an equitable taxation of growing timber crops. As a matter of fact, any 
authority on the part of the federal government to regulate the use of forest lands 
is shared by the states, an authority which tlie states are already excercising in 
certain instances. We would thus have the definite prospect of two sets of regu- 
lations, under state and under national enforcement, and not necessarily in agree- 
ment. 

I have avoided purposely the constitutianal aspects of this question because I 
am not competent to discuss them. It is my conviction that as a practical question 
of expediency, of getting results, and of carrying the United States forward to 
the stage where reforestation is the established order of things, federal control of 
private forest lands will not work. And I hold to this view particularly at the 
stage in our progress toward an assured and current supply of timber when, as 
at the present time, reforestation depends so largely upon a reduction in forest fires. 

Let me fix your attention for a moment upon the two hundred and forty-five 
million acres of forest land in the United States which contain cull or second 
growth timber or which are more or less completely stocked with young trees. That 
is nearly double the acreage of our remaining virgin forests. A large part of it 
lies in our thickly populated industrial states, widiin a stone's throw of the large 
centers of timber consumption. These two hundred and forty-five million acres 
of second growth and young timber may well represent a forest asset of the United 
States of greater value than our remaining virgin forests, and upon their pro- 
tection rests very largely our ability to bridge over the gap when virgin timber 
ceases to be an imjiortant factor in the yeiirly cut of forest products. The pro- 
tection of these two hundred and forty-five million acres from fire is in my judg- 
ment tile most important single forestry problem before the United States today. 

When you add to that the necessity of protecting our remaining stands of old 
timber and our enormous areas of land logged-off and now being logged where pro- 
tection alone will start young growth, it is difficult to place too much emphasis 
upon tiie importance of controlling forest fire as the first specific objectave we 
set out to accomplish. Until the fire hazard has been brought under substantial 
control, regulation of cutting methods at the best will be ineffective aiid precarious. 
I am convinced, thei-efore, that the immediate form which public forestry efforts 
should take and the authority through which it acts should be sucli as will most 
effectively handle tlie forest fire problem. And this brings me again to the state 
as the governmental agency under whose authority the work must be done, because 
it is hard f»r me to conceive of the federal government assuming and exercising tiie 
police functions of our states dealiug with tiie many phases of forest fires; and 
without such police powers no effort to contrel tiie forest fire probleni v.ill be 
successful. 

At the same time fire prevention is not an end in itself. It is a means for the 

reforestation and safety of timber lands; and reforestation is the real objective 

which must never be lost sight of. We must have the kind of fire protection that 

will actually restock cutover lands and establish growing forests, as far as keep- 



17 

ing out fire wiU do 80. Success will be measured by the acres of growing forests 
which are actually established ; and just as rapidly as the fire hazard is brought 
under reasonable control in this or that forest region, tlie steps in addition to 
keeping out fires which are necessary to put growing trees upon tlie land must 
be brought into play to the fullest extent that they are equitable to the forest 
owner. We must get before us this picture of reforestation as a whole ; and we 
must work for its realization as a whole just as rapidly as each successive step 
can in the light of equity and common sense be taken. It is for this reason that 
I am opposed to limiting federal legislation and plans for federal cooperation to 
fire protection alone. Rather would I put before the nation as a whole, as one 
agency, and tbe people of each state, as a second agency, the goal of complete re- 
forestation ©f lands not needed for other purposes with woods of economic value, 
and work toward that complete goal, step by step, as rapidly as we can. 



fi 



I have said that it does not seem to me possible for the federal government to as- 
sume the regulation of private lands. I believe that this must be done by the states, 
as a practical matter of getting results, because the states control the other essential 
factors in the whole problem. What then should be the part of the national govern- 
ment in bringing about the reforestation of private lands? I believe that the 
nation can best lead this great movement, not by mandate, but by cooperation, by 
education, by .fixing the requirements essential to reforestation in each region, 
and by encouraging their adoption. The federal government should be prepared to 
give general financial assistance to any state in protecting all sorts and conditions 
of its forest land from fire, once the state puts into effect the; requirements upon 
forest owners which will make the joint protective effort effective. These should 
include fire-proofing logged-off lands or some effective control of the slash hazard. 
In otlier words, tlie states must adopt such regulatory measures as will make the 
federal funds expended a genuine investment in growing timber. I know of no 
better way to insure a future supply of timber for the pi-airie and industrial States 
than.' to invest federal funds in the protection of growing forests, north, south, 
and west, with such safeguards in the use of these funds as will actually make the , 
protection effective. .^""""^ 

The national government sihould not stop with fire protection. It should define 
and recommend to each state all of the steps essential to reforestation, including 
methods of cutting or extracting forest products, the equitable taxation of growing 
forests, and any other factors bearing upon the actual establishment of timber 
crops on all forest lands. It should make continued federal cooperation, from time to 
time, conditional upon the adoption of such regulations of private forest lands as 
are shown to be necessary and equitable under the conditions existing in that state. 
And it should aid the states liberally in the education of forest owners, in the 
demonstration iof good forest practice, in reforestation, and in any special phases 
of the entire movement which the particular needs of any state call for. 

It is far from my' thought to assert that such a plamas I have outlined is the last 
word in our national forest policy. To me it is the most direct aiid practicable .road 
to immediate results as represented by acres of growing forests. But whether state 
rather than federal conti-ol of private forest lands is the final word 6)r not, I can 
see no reason why our states should not be encouraged to go just as far as they will 
in reforestation, or why any state that is prepared to impose restrictions upon 
its forest owner should not be given a clear field with the cooperation and advice 
©f the federal government in doing so. Every local interest that can be aroused, 
every real development toward better forest practice that can be brought about 
through local agencies and local action, represents so much ground gained. Many 
2 



18 

of till- islatcs liavo established fori'St organizations which aro accomplishing real 
resull.s in reforestation. I do not believe that our national policy should discani 
these organizations, in preventing forest devastation or bringing about reforesta- 
tion through any step which it may be possible for them to take. Nor. sliould our 
national policy discard co-operation with forest owners and forest industries in 
working out the practical problems of reforestation in each region. A policy of 
national cooperation with local agencies, working with and through our several 
states, will stimulate, in my judgment, the interest and support of all clcimiirs 
in Che country which should take an active part in this movement, to the most 
effective degree. 

Let me say further, that while I do not advocate federal control of private forest 
lauds, because I question its practicability, I can not see that there is any incon- 
sistency between federal control and the exercise of state jurisdiction in the sami> 
field ; nor can I see how any plan of federal control that might ever be adopted 
could prevent the states from exercising such jurisdiction as they choose over their 
forest owners in the same particulars. We have got to recognize the right of 
each state at least to exeroise jurisdiction over the lands within its own borders 
not inconsistent with federal law. Why not build that right with all of the local 
sentiment, the traditions of local self-government, the pride of local initiative 
which lie behind it, right into our national forest policy? Why not let the states go 
just as far as they will; and if federal control of forest lands is the ultimate 
answer, let it apply in those states which do not adequately handle the situation 
themselves. (Applause.) 

Mr. PINOHOT. Just before the governor left he expressed his strong desire to 
meet all the members of the conference. Upon adjourning here Ave will pass over 
to his office at the other end of the building and give him that opportunity. 

The CHAIRMAN. Everybody, I know, will be glad to meet Governor Sproul. 
I want to say just a word about Governor Sproul. and it comes from the heart. 
1 first met him at the Salt Lake City conference last year. 1 spent ten days later 
with him going through the Yellowstcrtie National Park. Mrs. Olcott and I fell in 
love with Mr. and Mrs. Sproul, as did every member of the Governors' conference. 
1 consiider Governor Sproul one of the very big men of this country, and I look 
forward to the day perhaps when Governor Sproul will be President of the United 
States. 1 want to say that he is a great big-hearted, Avholc-souled, capable, honest 
and sincere gentlemen, and I will carry back to Oregon only the" most pleasant 
memoives of Pennsylvania and of Governor and Mrs. Sproul, and of the fine comple- 
ment of state officials tliat I have met in this beautiful city of Harrisburg. 

At 12 :10 o'clock P. M., the conference recessed until 2 :00 o'clock P. M. 



Senate Chamber, 
Harrisburg, Pa., Wedn(S(hiy afternoon. 
December 8, 1920. 
GOVERNOR BENJAMIN W. OLCOTT presiding. 

The CHAIRMAN. We will now hear from Mr. J. G. Peters, of the United 
States Forest Service. (Applause.) 



19 

Mr. J. G. PETERS. Mr. Chairman and geutlomeu : I don't know what Mr. 
Pinchot had against me that he should wish on me this subject of the organization 
ol' state forest work. It is just about as dry a subject as could be enco^intered ; so 
if I do not succeed in making it interesting I want to engage in the popular Ameri- 
can pastime of "passing the buck." and throw some of the blame on his shoulders. 

Much Jias been said and written about the organization of state forest work. 
Peihnps too much has been said about mere organization and too little about fores- 
try. By that I mean that possibly if we had kept forestry and all it stands for in 
the foreground we might be still farther advanced tluui we now are. Nevertheless 
it is far from my mind to minimize the progress which has been made during the 
scarcely twenty-five years' movement for the establishment of state forestry depart- 
ments. But we must not lose sight of the fact that the departments and the legis- 
lation creating them are only means to an end, and that end is the woods part of 
the job of keeping forest lands productive, whether real forest lands or lands upon 
which it is not n(j\v economically possible to grow anytliing else but forests. Maybe 
if the public had been made to realize this to a greater extent than has beeni the 
case thus far, the proposal for federal control of private forest lands would not 
have been thought necessary by those who are advocating it. I think it was said 
by one of the governors who were meeting in this city last week that the reason 
for the tendency to turn to federal control of numerous activities usually handled 
by the states was because the state legislatures did not give the people what they 
wanted. On tlie other hand, is tliere not the possibility of the states resenting a 
wide expansion of federal control and of a reaction setting in towards the opposite 
extreme which might threaten the existence of well-established federal institutions 
as, for example, the National Forests themsehes, 

Be that as it may, there nev»'r was a time when strong state forestry departments 
were more needed than now. Thei'c never has been a better time than right now for 
the consumation of this desire. It is the public's fault where these departments are 
weak or entirely lacking. The public has been asleep, feeling secure as regards our 
timber .supply in tlie tliouglit that it was inexhaustible. AVhy worry ourselves 
about a state forestry department? Why add another penny to our mounting taxes? 
But during this period of inaction the sound of the ax has increased and the timber- 
supply bubble has burst as a result of high lumber prices and the publishing of in- 
formation by thr government and states on the inadequacy of our timbeil* supplies, 
wliicli culminated last .Tune in the issuing of the so-called Capper report. 

Evidences of an awakening are constantly being reported. In some states forest- 
land owners and lumbermen are willing to be taxed for the support of forestry work 
provided the forestry department is strengthened and made non-political ; in some 
states, there is a desire to extend the department's work ; in otliers, where no de- 
partments exist, there are strong manifestations of interest in their establishment 
along sound and efficient lines. 

Forest organization has been adopted by no less than thirty-four of the states, 
and in a variety of forms. Seven states have selected the separate board or commis- 
sion form, as in California, Maryland, Minnsota, New Hampshire, Oregon, Penn- 
sylvania and Washington. Delaware also might be given credit for providing by 
law for a board of forestry, but with no funds to operate it. Seven states have 
combined forestry with a number of other activities under a conservation commis- 
sion, as in Alabama, Indiana, Louisiana, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York 
and Wisconsin ; to this list might also be added Illinois, with its department of 
registration and education. Five have put forestry under the laud department, as 



20 

ill Idaho, Mciine. Michigan. Montana and South Dakota. Thivo states have placed 
forestry with or under the agricultural department, viz: Colorado, Kentucky and 
Vermont : three have located tlie state forester at the agricultural college, as in 
Kansas, North Dakota and Texas: two have provided for a state forester at the 
agricultural experimental station, as in Connecticut and Ohio. Three states have 
given their geological surveys state foresters, viz : North Carolina, Tennessee and 
\'irginia ; two lia\e lodged full power in an individual forest eommiss'oner, as in 
Iowa and Rln)de I.sland ; and one, West Virginia, has put forestry under the game 
and fish department. 

In some instances it would seem as though, in a haste to have forestry recognized 
IsV the states; it has hecu disachantagcously ))laced an departments already estah- 
lished, perhaj)s of long stiuuling, witli the result almost inAairiably that it has failed 
of proper consideration and has become pocketed by reason of being overshadowed 
by other and older activities. T'ndei* such conditiitiis it is extremely difficult to se- 
cure any appropriations beyond those for the barest necessities. I recall that in one 
state where the leg'slature was attacking the department as a whole, the state 
forester fought a lone fight for forestry without one bit of assistance from his chief, 
who claimed to be .too much engaged in defending the otlier and longer-established 
work of the department. Could anything be more disheartening? Maine has proved 
the exception, for there forestry holds the distinction of having been attached in 
a very minor way in the beginning to the state land department, but by steady 
growth it now is by far the major acti\ity. 

Many states have objected to the cstablislimeut of additional boards or commis- 
sions so that it has become necessary to place forestry in an establishe<l depart- 
ment. This was the case in Texas, for example, and the legislature selected the 
agricultural and meelianical eoll"ge as the place for the work. While an ideal 
h>cation in many resi)ects, including particularly the absence of politics, it has at 
the same time the. disadvantage of offering obstacles to adequate appropriations for 
forestry, because of the large number of actiA ities at the college for which funds 
are needed, so that forestry must take its chance, and sometimes a slim chance, 
along with the rest. 

As an example of the vicissitudes of state forest organization, one has but to con- 
sider the action taken by Kentucky. In 1906 the Board of Agriculture, Forestry 
and Immigration was empowered to act as a forestry commission to further the 
interests of forestry and cooperate with federal forest officials ; in 1912 the com- 
mission was superseded by a Board of Forestry which had authority to appoint 
a state forester, establish a forest fire protective system, tmd engage in other forest 
activities ; six years later, this board with all its powers was consolidated with the 
geological board as a single-headed commission, and the state forester appointed 
commissioner of geology and forestry ; and two years after that, in 1920, the com- 
missioner was legislated out of office and forestry scrapped, except that as an 
afterthought the legislature of that great forest-producing commonwealth, realizing 
that there was some property left from the wreck which should be cared for, 
took the necessary steps to transfer this property to the custody of the Bureau ot 
Agriculture, Labor and Statistics, and as an additiona,! afterthought recreated the 
position of state forester and placed it also under that bureau. Is it, therefore, any 
surprise that the head of the bureau has not succeeded in filling the place after 
nearly a year, although tlie position pays a salary of three thousand dollars? Thus, 
since this bureau succeeded to the authority of the first-named Board of Agriculture, 
Forestry and Immigration, the merry-go-round ■was completed. 

The last few years tliere has been a general tendency to combine forestry with 
other activities on the grounds chiefly of economy and of reducing the number of 
state department so as to bring them in closer touch with the executive. Thus, 



among tlie states which have effected the larger combinations are Alabama, which 
has combined forestrj' with the protection of game and fish, oysters and other 
shell-fish, and, as the law prescribes, "all other natural resources within the state, 
which have not been reduced to private ownership" ; Illinois, where the state forester 
is placed under the department of registration and education, one of the nine large 
state departments ; Indiana, which discontinued its board of forestry and combined 
forestry with geology, entomology, lands and waters, and fish and game ; Kentucky, 
where, as mentioned above, the foresti'y board was discontinued and forestry 
placed with geology and later witli agriculture ; Louisiana, where forestry is com- 
bined with minerals, fish and game, and oysters and waterbottoms ; Massachusetts, 
which has recently put forestry with fish and game, and animal husbandry, in one 
of the twenty state departments ; Michigan, which abolished its forestry commission 
and created a public domain commission, with charge over public lands, forestry, 
fish and game, and immigration ; New Jersey, where the forestry board was dis- 
continued and forestry combined with geology, water resources, land registry, state 
parks, and the state museum ; New York, which was among the first to change from 
u forest commission to a forest, fish and game commission, and later to a single- 
headed conservation commission having charge of forestry, water resources, and fish 
and game, in addition to one of the state parks ; and Wisconsin, which did away 
with its forestry board and combined forestry with fish and game, and state parks. 
I have given these combinations in detail because it is interesting to see the variety 
of activities which have been brought together. 



Entirely aside from the point of whether such combinations are the best in the 
interest of forestry, they have undoubtedly come to stay, and there will be similar 
combinations effected in other states. Therefore, it is well to recognize this and 
endeavor where the trend to consolidate seems inevitable to work out a satisfactory 
combination of departments dealing with the conservation of the state's natural 
resources. I remember a state forester once saying that he anticipated the movement 
in his state, and went about securing the combination of such departments as 
would not only merge satisfactorily with forestry, but would not reduce forestry 
to a condition of unimportance. This is a cue which all of us who are interested 
in the subiect of state forest organization should take. 



The advantages to be gained by combining forestry with other activities are 
worthy of consideration, but in any combination the interests bf each are best served 
by Independent direction. Tluis, a combined forestry and game department should 
have a duly qualified forester in charge of the forestry work and a competent game 
specialist or biologist — a technical man — in charge of the game work, both directly 
responsible to an impartial commission or board of control. The mistake which has 
been made in at least one instance of leaving it to the department heads to settle 
the relative merits of the various needs, however, should be avoided, as this involves 
the giving of unbiased consideration to questions in which one's own work conflicts 
with that of others, which we may as well recognize as impossible. The results arc 
friction and log-rolling. 

It would be presumption on anyone's part to prescribe a single hard and fast 
formula for the states to follow in organizing their forestry departments. Moreover, 
it would not work. Nevertheless, I think you will agree with me that there is need 
for an ideal with which as a basis we can feel that we arc traveling in the right 
direction. While we might differ as to details, we might agree as to the funda- 
mental requirements of an effective forestry law, namely, that in a workable l>lan 



•f orsanizatiou provisiou must be mad.' that will properly safeguard the work from 
political interference, and impose rigid requirements as to the qualifications of the 
man in charge. These can be most readily accomplished, certainly, by placing 
forestry in the hands of a department protected from outside interference by means 
of a continuing, non-partisan board or commission; that is to say, a body so 
organized that the terms of a majority of its members will not end in any one ad- 
ministration, and so constituted that those private interests which are more or less 
related to forestry should be represented, as well as the public, and that where 
necessary to include ex-officio members they should be limited to those who by 
reason of their positions can be counted upon to take interest in the board's 
activities. 

Next in importance to effective organization and the elimination of politics is 
an adequate guarantee that the man appointed to direct the forestry work will be 
properly qualified. By all means he should be a technically trained forester, pref- 
erable a graduate of a forest school of recognized standing. In addition, he should 
have had sufficient experience in the practice of forestry to demonstrate his ability 
to handle the job. In this connection, the Texas law, for example, provides that 
the state forester "shall be a technically trained forester of not less than two years' 
experience in professional forestry work". If forestry is really to be undiertaken, 
the natural and practical thing to do is to employ a forester to direct the work, 
and not a man whose training and experience have been along other lines. This 
does not mean that the executive in charge of administering the departmont of 
which forestry is a part need be a trained forester ; in fact, it is better that he 
should not be a technical man at all, as experience both in our national and state 
governments has demonstrated. 

But no matter how fine an organization may be provided, however, without 
funds it will not function. And tins brings us to the matter of appropriations. The 
success of state forestry departments has generally varied directly with the amount 
of appropriation received. It is difficult to conceive of some of them ever receiv- 
ing -adequate funds as constituted or located at present. While the states' general 
treasuries are the source from which funds are usually obtained, the exceptions 
are worthy of note, viz : Louisiana, which levies a severance tax on the value of 
the stumpage cut; Maine, in the so-called forestry district in the northern part 
of tlie state, where a tax is placed on the value of the forest-land ; and Oregon 
and Washington, which require the participation of private funds in the form of 
;i patrol tax. 

In conclusion, I wish to repeat with emphasis that the perfection of organization 
*nd the adequacy of funds are only the means to an end, namely, the practice of 
forestry in the woods. (Applause.) 

The ClIAIIviMAN. It has been suggested that it would bo a good idea to have a 
discussion of each paper as it comes up. Does anyone wish to discuss anything 
that Mr. Peters has referred to? I suppose you will answer questions, Mr. Peters? 

Mr. PETERS. Yes, sir; if I can. 

Mr. WILLIAM T. COX, State Forester, Minnesota. How many states now 
have what you would consider non-political forestry boards? 

Mr. PETERS. I'y fnr tlie majority. The trend is decidedly away from polit- 
ieal infinenc^. 



28 

Mr. PINCHOT. ' I would like to ask a mean question. Would it be a fair 
thing to ask the men who are here whose work is free from political interference 
to hold up their hands, do you think? 

About twelve members of the conference raised their hands. 

Air. PINCHOT. That is a fine showing. 

Mr. JOHN H. WALLACE. The commissioner of conservation of Alabama 
enjoys the unique distinction of being the only officer of similar character in the 
United States who is elected by the people. It has been that way from the 
beginning, and permit me to throw a bouquet at mj-self, I have just been re-elected 
for the fifth time for a term of four years. 

Mr. W. A. GUTHRIE, of ludiuua. Mr. Chairman, I tliink Mr. Peters waa a 
little misleading with reference to Indiana. To give a little history, in 1901 we 
passed the first forestry law. Governor Durbin appointed a board, and tliey elected 
a secretary. They functioned only as a political machine. I am sorry to say 
that happened under a Republican administration. The next four years Governor 
Hanly was elected, and he appointed the same secretary with the same results. 
When Governor Marshall came in he wanted a man that was efficient. He said 
if I would get the salary raised so Professor Thomas could afford to accept the 
place, also a Ilci)ublican, but who wS.s a qualified man. Some of you know 
him as having baan connected with Wabash College. Thomas did not like to under- 
take the work of having the salary raised and the rest of us did not like to go 
before the Legislature to raise one's salary without his assistance. Governor 
Marshall then appointed a man who was a botanist and scientist, who devoted his 
time and energy to the forestry question. When Governor Ralston was elected, 
another Democrat, Governor Marshall said to him, "I do not care whom you 
appoint of my appointees, or whether you appoint them all, but there is one man 
1 want you to retain and that is the man who is secretary of forestry, Mr. Deam." 
Governor Ralston said he would appoint Mr. Deam but the politicians played a 
trick on him. Mr. Deam was not a politician and did not care for the work any- 
way, so he was not re-appointed. When Governor Goodrich came into office he 
asked me to help him to form the forestry board. "Do you want efficiency or 
political service? I know of but ©ne man in the state who would accept the office 
for the salary it carries and he happens to be of a different political faith than 
we are. I know he would be a very efficient man in this line. He loves the work, 
not for the salary but for the work he can accomplish." He said, "Well, name 
him and I will appoint him." That is my friend, Mr. Deam. He has been very 
competent and has done good work for the state, on forestry. 

Two years ago the Legislature passed a law creating a Department of Conser- 
vation. In that department we have an efficient organization, but the forestry 
department is just as independent and more so than it ever was. We have a com- 
missioner of forestry, who is Mr. Deam here, and who has full charge of all that 
work. He makes a written report and turns it over to our executive officers. Our 
director, four or five days before our meeting, goes over in detail his report and 
makes any suggestions that he feels like. Then the report with the director's 
recommendation is turned over to us. This commission is non-partisan. It is 
composed of two Democrates and two Republicans. It is made up of men in 
different lines of work. While, it has been less tlian two years, we are the only 
department, the only one in the state tliat never got any criticism during the 
heated campaign that we had this year. We were commended for the amount of 



24 

work that we had done aud for the amount of money that we have saved the 
state. Why? Because we have appointed some Democrats and some Republicans 
and there is no politics in it They did work, they were efficient, and they delivered 
the goods and accomplished more than we had ever accomplished. The one thing 
that I want to correct Mr. Peters in, is tliat the department of forestry is as 
independent a^ it ever was. 

Tlic CHAIRMAN. If there are no furthor inquiries, we shall proceed with the 
next paper. 

For the reason that a good many of the gentlemen will be going .away tomorrow, 
it has been suggested that Mr. Pinchot's paper be presented how, rather than the 
last on the program tomorrow afternoon. So in accordance with that I will a.sk 
that Mr. Piuchot give his paper on "The States in the National Forest Policy.'" 

HON. GIFFORD PINCHOT, Commissioner of Forestry, Harrisburg. Gentle- 
men, I do not know whether it has been as much satisfaction to all of you to 
see the old faces together again as it has been to me, but certainly it has carried 
me back very, very much to the old time. I want to say to begin with that if 
you other state foresters are enjoying your work and having as much fun out of 
it as I am, I think you are to be congratulated. I have had more fun in the 
last nine months than I have had since the year 1910, when I was removed from 
public office for the public good. It is great fun to get back into the harness 
and bite down again on the kind of work that I am good for, if I am good for 
anything. 

I think perhaps the best thing I could do to begin with would be to run over 
very rapidly only the experiences that we have had in Pennsylvania recentiy 
in this forest matter. I will give you, as far as I understand tliem, the reasons 
which I think have led to the promise of success which faces us new. 

Dr. Rothrock gave you tliis morning a brief resume of the history of forestry 
in Pennsylvania. What he did not tell you, and what I am mighty glad to be able 
to say in the presence of you state foresters, is that there is no other man in any 
state of the Union who has ever done for forestry in that state what Dr. Rothrock 
has done for forestry in this state of Pennsylvania. I think he is getting p;irt of 
his reward ©n this earth, for a man over eighty years old who can come back and 
give the speech that he gave this morning, after haWng killed two deer in the 
state of Maine, this fall, deserves congratulation. 

Dr. Rothrock is the father of forestry in Pennsylvania, but, for reasons which 
were not entirely separate from political consideration. Dr. Rothrock was unable 
to carry out and complete the work which he began. While he has always been 
associated with our forest department, there were many things which took place 
for which he was not responsible. 

It is fair to say that the department is absolutely free from political influence. 
1 know that in the only case where there was an effort made to bring political 
pressure to bear, the answer from the department was sufficiently direct and 
vigorous so that it has not been repeated. There is no politics in the Pennsylvania 
Department of Forestry whatever, but we do have the hearty support not only of 
the governor, but of the whole state organization, and that, of course, la one of the 
first reasons why things are going well. 

When Major Stuart and I took charge of this work we found several essential* 
of success present. In the first place the Forest Commission, willing and able to 



25 

understand the situation and to give us the support without which we could have 
done nothing. Secondly, a body of men in the forest department, such as, Mr. Roth- 
rock said this morning, could not be surpassed, I think, by any similar body of 
public servants anywhere. 

But we also found very^ serious deficiencies which amounted to giving us sub- 
stantially a clean slate upon which our work could be written. For example, among 
the first things we had to do was to establish a system of accounts. There was no 
budget in the department. One of the next things was to establish a system of 
inspection. There was no inspection. One of the next things was to get ready t<! 
prepare fire plans for the individual forests. Others were to make a complete re- 
organizatien of the department so that responsibility was definitely assigned to 
men and to subjects ; to bring forestry into the timber-cuttings ; to establish a 
line of demarcation in timber sales between what the men in tlie field could do 
and what the men at Harrisburg had to do ; and t© arrange for practical advice 
ill forestry to private owners, to enforce for the first time the law of 1915, which 
gives full power to compel protection against fire on private lands ; and so on, and 
so on, and so on. 

We had the opportunity, under laws, not in all respects satisfactory but still 
abundantly sufficient, and with appropriations suHieient at least in part for the 
work ©f this first year, we had the opportunity and the power to reconstruct the 
organization of the department and make it lean toward the side of efficiency, to 
lay down clear lines of responsibility, and so on, and especially give the men in the 
field the kind of responsibilty without which no good work is ever possible, the kind 
of responsibility which gives a man the chance to exercise the powers that are in 
him and secure recognition for the accomplishment when it is done. 

That is the nearest oulline of tlie foundation that had to be laid. You can not 
get anywhere, of course, without a sound and effective organization, or withoi't men 
who know their business, unless you have tliat you are still in a situation whfc^e 
state work or national forest work must fail. So when we had gotten our department 
reorganized, divided up into definite bureaus, with definite duties for each, when we 
had succeeded in giving the men at least those who remained, (for we were obliged 
to get rid of some, in order to give a living salary to others), something approaching 
a li\ing compensation, we had to give each man a man's-sized job so that he would 
be obliged to stretch himself to fill it. After we had given him good business methods 
to work with and a chance to show what was in him, still the success of the move- 
ment was not altogether insured. You cannot do anything without good work, but 
good work done does not always give you everything that you have got to have 
to win. 

Beyond the work in the Department, we had to convince the state of Pennsylvania 
til at the forest question was a big question instead of a little question. What 
little I know ©f work in forestry, either in the nation or in tlie state, leads me 
to believe that at the present stage of the development of public opinion here is 
the key to the whole situation. Forestry in Pennsylvania has not been moving 
ahead fast enough. When Dr. Rothrock tried and tried and tried for years in the 
most self-denying and unremittent way to get the people of the state of Pennsylvania 
to realize that it was a big question, he lacked the support from the outside which 
made it possible fully for him to succeed. He laid the foundation without which we 
could not be doing anything today. But his great work did not come at a time 
when it was possible for him or any ether man to put over the conception of 



26 

forestry which is now being instilled in the people of die state of P(;niisyl\auia. 
In other words, if lie did not do what now we hope to do with it, if he did not do 
alone what we now hope he will help us to do, it is well to remember that he did 
everything tliat could have been done under the circumstances, and more than seemed 
possible. 

Now then, let me emphasize that again. Forestry in Pennsylvania was seen in 
the public eye as a small thing. The size of it was not understood, the effect of 
it on the welfare of the state was not understood. Pennsylvania was dealing witli 
forestry on a dollar plane instead of on a hundred million dollar plane. That is 
an exaggeration of coui-se, and yet that was the general point of view that the 
average citizen of Pennsylvania had of forestry. Am I not right, Doctor".' 

Dr. ROTHROCK. Yes, sir. 

Mi: PINCHOT. It had to be taken away from that small conception and had 
to be put on a one-hundred-million-dollar basis, to use round figures. If we figure 
out what forest de\astation in the state costs in money, we find iiometliing in the 
neighborhood of one hundred million dollars a year, which is almo.st twice what it 
costs to run the state government. It had to be taken out of tlie little and put 
into the big. As far as I am able to understand it, the common success at this 
present time in forestry, national and in the states, is due to the recognition of 
needs that are basic essentials. A man can not be a good citizen unless he has 
foresight and has courage. Forestry can not succeed unless we have a good 
organization mid good men, but beyond that we must have a conception in the 
public mind that warrants a forester, in the public mind, in asking for big things 
because he is dealing with a big subject. Then having established (we have not 
done it in Pennsylvania, but we. are making progress) — having established the idea 
that forestry is a really big question, not a part of the fish and game question, not 
a part of the water question, not a part of the land question, but one of the major 
divisions of tlie state's activities, supplying some of the major needs of the state's 
agriculture and industry, we have got to go ahead and present to the people of the 
state a perfectly concrete and definite plan. I am doubtless talking things that you 
gentlemen have all known for years, but the best I can do is to give you the w^ay 
in which the thing has struck us and is being worked out ,hore in the state of 
Pennsylvania. 

The next thing then is a concrete plan. We have a concrete plan here which has 
been adopted by the governor, which is known as the governor's plan, and whicli 
goes at once back to what is our particular problem here, and asks for money to 
meet the situation. That is the first big question in forestry in Pennsylvania. 

Pennsylvania is a deforested state. The Pittsburgh district alone is using more 
wood than is produced in tlie whole of Pennsylvania every year. Yet the natural 
reproduction is abundant. We do not need to plant on any considerable scale, but 
we have got to stop fires if there are to be any future forests in our state. Con- 
sequently the first item of our plan is to equip the forests of Pennsylvania against 
fire ; that means, of course, as you know, not merely annual expenditures for 
fighting fire, but it means fire-control, fire-towers, telephones, roads, tools, organ- 
izations of citizens, volunteer fire-fighting organizations in the forest town^s, com- 
plete fire-fighting plans for the various forests. For all that we are asking for one 
million dollars for the next two years. That is the first item of our policy. 

The »fK;ond, which was so well discussed by the governor this morning, is the 
acquisition of additional forest lands. We have now about one miUion one hundred 



27 

thousand acres of state forests, and we want five million acres more. There is in 
the proposed new constitution authority for the issuance of bonds to the extent 
of twenty five million dollars for the purchase of land. But that constitution 
may never pass, and if it does it will be years before it comes into effect. We can 
not wait for that ; consequently we shall ask from the legislature such a sum of 
money for the purchase of land as the government can be made willing to approve. 

How much that will be I do not know. I would like to make it five million 
dollars. That is what we ought to have, and especially because under Judge Wood- 
ruff's leadership we have succeeded in gathering together more data than has ever 
been collected before as to the remaining forest-lands of the state, as to what they 
can be bought for, as to where they are, and the rest of it. 



We are ready to go ahead with these two plans for just as much money as the 
Legislature can be induced to give us. We hope for excellent results, and shall be 
greatly disappointed if we do not get a good deal more money for fire this year. 
If they do not give us that million dollars tlien we must persuade the people of the 
state, not merely that this is a big question, but that we have a definite plan to 
carry it out. We must persuade them that we are capable of handling the plan, 
of handling the money that will be given to us, that we have an organization that 
is efficient and progrossivo enough to make good in case the confidence of the 
Legislature and the opportunity to do the work is given to us. 



Now, how are you going to get this ideal, this plan and this convictioi) of ability 
to handle the proposition to the people? There are two big ways, of course. The 
first that will occur to everyone is the press. We must approach the people of our 
state through the only available rapid means of reaching them, the newspapers ; 
tell them' what the situation is, and how big the thing is, and how much depends 
uivon it. I think it is a fair tiling to say that in the lasl nine months there have been 
more stories about forestry in the papers of Pennsylvania than in the previous 
nine years, and perhaps tlian in the whole previous history of the state. There has 
been a mass ©f it, and it has had an excellent effect. 



The point th'at I want now to make to you is as to the method of getting 
publicity. You can give out, gentlemen, all the formal stories you like, and some 
of them will be printed in some of the metropolitan newspapers. Tlius you get 
a certain amount of public attention. But the thing that will do most to put 
you where you ought to be in the public mind, with the proper amount of pulUic 
spirit behind you, is the little bit of an item in the local paper. It is the little 
story that applies to the county or tlie town that counts. The localization of news, 
at any rate in a state like ours, is the secret of public support. Take this il- 
lustration : Mr. Vorse, a graduate of the Yale Forest School, who has charge of 
©ur publicity work, had handed to him one day a letter which went out fi-om this 
department to all of the county commissioners of the state of Pennsylvania, to 
sixty-seven counties. That could have been handled in either one of two ways. It 
could have been given to the big newspapers as a letter written to all of the county 
commissioners, in which case none of the papers would have printed it, or practically 
none. Instead of that it was sent to the individual papers in the individual counties, 
and the caption was, "The Commissioner of Forestry writes a letter to the Com- 
missioners of Lackawanna County," or Snyder County, or Washington County, 
and there was hardly a paper in the state of Pennsylvania that did not print it. 



28 

There is just the difference. One of the things that I have learned in this work, 
one of the things that I wanted to hand over to you most, was the value of this 
localization of your news. If it works wdth you as it works here in Pennsylvania 
yon won't merely double, you will quintuple, or multiply fifteen times the amount 
of information that gets into the hands of the fellow that takes his slioes off and 
puts his feet on the other chair and reads his paper by the stove in the evening 
when his day's work is done. He is the fellow we want to reach. That is one way 
of putting the thing over. 

The second way and one whiich is of enormous value also, it seems to me, in the 
formation of public sentiment and in the actual cooperation that you get, is in the 
method of dealing with the big commercial interests of the state. For example, 
not long ago, after I came in here, I called together the representatives of all the 
railroads of Pennsylvania, and laid my case before them. I said, "I have no law 
that will compel you fellows to build fire-lines, burn strips along your railroads, 
but it ought to be done, and here are the reasons." The result of it after an after- 
noon's conference, was that they agreed, wherever a railroad runs through a forest, 
to burn a strip one hundred feet wide from the outside rail along their tracks 
whenever they could first get the permission of the private owners to do it. They 
actually did it, and actually are doing it, and each spring that agreement will bring 
us nearer to the elimination of the greatest single case of forest fires. 

That simple move gave us not only the cooperation of the railroads but it 
immediately had this other effect, that of persuading the railroad organizations 
that this, forest question is worth their attention. The railroad corporations con- 
sider it a big thing instead of a little thing, and this same method has been used 
to persuade a great many owners, or organizations of timber-land owners, and so 
•n. 

We liave succeeded in establishing in Pennsylvania among the Boy. Scouts an 
organization known as the Forest Guides. fSolon Parkes, of Reading, must be given 
tht credit of being the inventor of this idea. These boys enlist, they are given a 
button by the department, they sign a pledge-card tb prevent and put cut forest- 
fires ; to protect wild life; and get other people to do the same. We will have by 
spring ten thousand of them out of the twenty-odd thousand Boy Scouts of Penn- 
sylvania. We will have whatever number it may be of boys scattered all over 
the state who understand, (and their fathers and mothers will come to understand 
also) that the forest fire question is really big. 

This effort toward general public education has worked out, not only in the 
Legislature, but also in the woods. I do not know how it is -with you, but with us 
a majority of the fires that are set, so far as I am able to estimate, are set on 
purpose. I can not prove that statement, but if it is not true it is pretty nearly 
true. The only way in which that can be reached effectively is not by prosecutions, 
but by creating such a public sentiment as to make public sentiment among the 
pe(>))h' of tlie state that will not stand for a man who sets a forest fire any more 
than it stands for a man who bums down a house. 

Gradually from these various methods a public state of mind is going to be 
created. To a considerable extent it is already created so tliat it is felt. For 
example, we had last fall the driest October in twenty-eight years. Out of the one 
million one hundred thousand acres of state forests only one hundred and twenty- 
five acres were burned over, and the fires avei-aged only fifty-four acres in size. 
That to the smallest area per fire in the history of the department, which means 



29 

that men were jumping on the fires more effectively than ever before. Tou get 
your response just as much in the woods as you do under a roof, and it pays 
enormously. 

Nearly overbody is susceptible to these methods. Takv. another example. We have 
a law in Pennsylvania which was passed in 1015, which makes it a punishable 
offense for a man to maintain a fire nuis«nce. After the chief fire wardten tells him 
it is a nuisance, if he does not abate it, he is liable to a one-hundred-dellar fine 
for every separate day it is maintained after notification. This law was a dead 
letter. It never had been enforced. We took it up with the big timber-land owners 
of the state, and it was amazing to see how quickly they came into camp and said : 
"AVhatever you fellows say we ought to do we will do so far as we can." 

There has been but one single case of a man coming back and telling us where 
we could g© to before he would carry out our recommendations. In that case, be- 
fore he coufd get, almost before I hafl written the letter which told him what I ' 
would do if he would not be good, notice came from his partners that they had, 
without consultation with him, carried out the instructions of the department. 

Now, I have taken a great deal of your time in telling you about what we have 
tried to do in this state, because I enjoy talking about it, just as I enjoy immensely 
my association with the men with whom I have been working in this effort of the 
state of Pennsylvania in forestry. I want to repeat as the last thing, as it was 
the first thing that I said, tliat in my judgment the very bottom and foundation 
and origin of all successful forest movements in any state must be the taking of 
the forest question out of the class of little things and putting it among the big 
things. When we have done that it seems to me wo have covered more than half 
of the whole road. 

Now, I have taken a great deal more time than I intended, Mr. Chairman, but 
I would like to take ten minutes more with your permission. I want to take up 
another question, and like so many of the rest of you, I have a written speech. 
This is on the specific subject that was assigned to me, the matter of tlie place 
of the states in the national forest-policy. So I will read you briefly what I 
have to say. I have written it down not only because we were all requested to 
write papers, but because I want to say exactly what I want to say. 

Public opiuion is just awakening to the vital need for the practice of forestry 
on private tiraberlands held for commercial purposes. This awakening, far more 
l'uri>oseful and wido-spread than the similar stirring of public opinion wh'ch made it 
IMissiblc to secure the Natonal Forests, offers by far the most promising opportunity 
for progress in American forestry within my experience. There is clearly before 
us the chance for greater advance, an advance which may even extend within the 
next decade to the point of assuring a permanent and sufficient supply ot American 
forest products. 

The chance is hero, but wc have not yot made use of at. \\'e must crystalliz*'- 
this invahiable public opinion behind a policy wide enough and strong enough to 
make us independent for good and all of timber sxipplios from other countnes. Our 
success in doing so M'ill depend on two or tlireo e.ssi'iitial.s in tlie policy behiud whieK 
the forces of forest conservation elect to throw. their strength. The first of these 
is that we must work with and not against the underlying trend of the times. T]i'> 
second is that we must present to Congress with which the decision has, a poliey 

which can be passed, and which, when passer" will produce results. The policy wc 



80 

decide on must be submitted for the approval of Congress-, a national body whose 
members are necessarily governed not only by the interests of the nation at large, 
but more particularly by the interests of the individual states AVhich they represent. 

The essential facts in the lumber situation so far as the selection of n natiou,al 
forest iwlicy is concerned arc three — first, the United States is not self-supporting in 
timber, but is consuming its forest capital four times faster than tliat capital is 
being renewed; second, not only timber but the productive capacity of timberlands 
is being destroyed ; third, the great majority of the states are unable to stupply 
their own needs for wood, but must rely upon the forest resources of other states. 
Therefore, the agriculture and industries of most of the states are dependent for 
their essential supplies of lumber on forests outside, of their own boundaries. As 
to a majority of our commonwealths, this condition will be permanent. 

It may be taken as basic, therefore, tiuit the majority of the states, containina; 
a large majority of the American people, will be permanently dependent for their 
prosperity on timber supplies produced outside of the boundaries of the states in 
whiph they are consumed. That being so, the balance of power in Ck)ngrcss as 
I>etween the forested and the deforested or unferested states is a consideration of 
\ital importance in the formulation, and still more in the enactment, of a national 
forest policy. 

Entirely apart from partisan consideration, certain facts as to the n cent electio.'i 
have great importance in this regard— we have all heard rumors that there was 
an election not long ago. On March 4th next tlie weight of power in ;onr government 
will pass from the states that are predominantly exporters of lumber to the states 
tliat are predominantly importers of lumber; from a group of states whose prin- 
cipal business, aside from agriculture, is lumbering to a group of states whose prin- 
cipal business, aside from agriculture, is manufacturing. 

Under tlie new order, tlierefore, the states whose vital industritjs depend on lumber 
grown in oilier states will hold the balance of power. Of the states which have just 
gone Republican, more than tliree-quarters are importers of wood. Moreover, the 
chairmanships of the committees on agriculture and appropriations in House and 
Senate are and will be held by men from lumber-importing states — not only so, 
but the great majority- of the members of each committee is and will be from states 
whose industries would perish without lumber from beyond their own borders. 

What is true of the membership of these two committees is true of Oongres.-? 
as a wliole. In the cojisideration of what can or can not, as well as what should or 
should not, be included in a forest policy for the whole nation, these facts obv:iously 
require consideration. 

Two forms of national forest policy for preventing forest devastation are before 
the country for consideration — one that of direct national control — the other that 
of state control under national persuasion. I want to be considered very thoroughly 
in what I am about to say now as a state forester, for 1 am speaking' not only 
from my interest in forestry in the state of Pennsylvania, and because I want 
certain help for this state from the federal government. 

Tlie Forest Service plan has been embodied in an item to be submitted to the 
House committee on agriculture as a proposed part of the coming agricultural bill. 
With all that part of this item which has to do with cooperation between the states 
and the nation for the control of fire, for the promotion of planting, and for forest- 



31 

Investigation, we are all agreed. With that part of it which assigns to the «t»te« 
control over forest devastation, some of us profoundly disagree. 

Let me make mj' position entirely clear. 

First, I welcome any and every action by an individual state to prfevent forest 
devastation. 

Second, I have confidence in tlie technical and executive capacity of state foresters 
as a body, and complete reliance upon their devotion to thtfir work. 

Third, 1 am for national control, because in my judgment it is the only fonii of 
control that can actually be secured, and the only form that, if secured, can be 
effectively enforced. Only national control w^ill guarantee uniformity of treatment 
among all those to whom it is applied, or will assure protection to the vital in- 
terests of all thi! wood-using people of all the states. 

Fourth, I am for and shall whole-heartedly support ail that part of the proposed 
Fonpst Service appropriation item which does not assign control of forest devastation 
to the states. For that purpose, I have already asked to be heard before the house 
and senate agricultural committees. By the way, I want to say that under the 
new order, I did not know it until yesterday, in Washington all the approiiriations 
for the forestry department an the House will come before tie appropriation committee 
instead of before the agriculture committee ; therefore 1 assume that this item wiil 
follow that course, but if I find that this is so I shall ask to be heard befoire the 
House committee on appropriations, and shall, before those committees and in all 
other ways, do my best to secure the appropriation of a, million dollars for national 
cooperation with the states in fire-protection, planting, and forest investigation. 
At the same time, I shall, if necessary, ask to substitute for the few words whose 
effort is to assign control over forest devastation, and hand over the timber supply 
of tlie whole nation, to the individual timber-exporting states, some such wordiui^ 
as the following : "And the secretary of agriculture, where and to the extent necea- 
sary to insure a future timber supply to the American people, may, under the rules 
and regulations to be prescribed by him, require the owners of timber lands held 
for commercial purposes upon the watersheds of navigable streams, when such lands 
are valuable only or mainly for timber production, to refrain from destroying tlie 
capacity thereof to produce trees." I make this statement with full understanding 
that an item in an appropriation bill is valid for only one year. But to adopt it 
might well be taken, and would certainly be claimed, to be the adoption of itho 
state-control policy by the uation;il Congress. Tiie precedent is dangerous. In my 
opinion, the words which cai-ry state control should be eliminated. 

Except that rumors to tiic contrary luu'e reached me, it would seem unnecessary 
for me to say that this position of mine is not based on hostility to the Service, 
or to any part of its policy except state-control. It would seem unnecessary to 
repeat that no one has a profounder feeling of interosi , affection and respect for 
the Service, or more cause for it, than I. The best years of my life were given to it ; 
1 helped it grow from very small beginnings to its prosent nation-wide importance. 
Since I left it, no call to defend its interests or promote its welfare has ever gone 
unan.swered so far as I know. A father is not charged with coldness or disloyalty to 
his child when he points out an erring tcjidencj'. No more should 1. 

As I have said times out of mind, there is no better body of public servants any- 
where on earth than tJie men and women of the Forest Service ; no better work ha* 



32 

evtr beeu doue for the jfoverumeut and tlie people of the United Slates tliau the 
Service has perfoiinod ; no more difficult and delicate task was ever approached 
with finer spirit, wider knowledge or greater devotion than the task which fac-;d 
Colonel Graves when he succeeded to the leadership of the Service ; the work of 
Forest Service men in the world war, at home and abroad, is the source of infinite 
pride and gratitude to e\ery American ; under the vigorous and energetic leadership 
of Colonel Greeley, I wish the Service every success. But I reserve and shall 
exercise, now and always, the right of independent judgment as to whether or not, 
in any given case, the policy of the Service is right or wrong. In the present instance 
1 believe it is to the interest of the nation, of the Forest Service, and the forest 
organization of the various states and very much to tthe interest of the uliole, that 
the nation rather tlian a few timber-exporting states should control forest devas- 
tation and our future wood supply, and so believing I can do nothing less than 
give expression to my belief. 

Moreover, the reasons given above, together witli my own experience witli Congress, 
and a spin-ial investigation of the .present position of congressional leaders, have 
convint^iHl me as to the attitude Congress will assume. I have said a good many 
tim(\s in jirint tliat in my judgment it would be impossible to: secure from this Con- 
gress, or from any Congress in the near future, the enactment of the state-control 
policy either, in an appropriation bill lor in any other form of bill. In order to be 
absolutely certain of my ground in this matter, I went to Washington and talked 
the thing over with a numbiu- of the leaders who have been known for a great many 
years, and satisfied myself as well as I was able in the shor^fe^time I was there as to j 
what the actual situation was. 1 talked v;ith Mr. MowTell, not directly on thi^lr-f 
question, but as to the situation in the matter of appropriations, and found him / 
more impressed tlian I liavo for a good many years with the absolute necessity for 
retrenchment. Mr. Montell, wlio was pretty close to being tlie father of the reela- 
mjitioii act, told me tliat he had already notified the men of the west who had come 
to him on the subject that there would be no direct appropriations for that purpose 
this year. Talking then with men on the committees of agriculturo and appropria- 
tions of both House and Senate, I came back entirely convinced. 

1 came back with definite knowledge where befoi-e I only had a conviction that so far 
as Congress is concerned any effort to secui^e o'ther in this item or anywhere else, 
either at this session or any session in the future, a form of words which would au- 
thorize the inauguration of a state-control policy would fail. I want to make that 
thing very clear, because it would have been unfortunate for me to emphasize a 
statement of that kind and to have found afterwards it was unjustified. All these 
things together have, I think, given ma a clear conception of what the attitude of 
Congress will be. It is perfectly obvious that an effort to place in the hands of the 
forested states — which within ten j'ears means in the hands of the Legislatures of 
Washington, Oregon and California — the decision as to the future timber supply of 
state.s more numerous, more populous, and more largelj' represented in Congress, 
is foredoomed to fail. 

Colonel Greeley himself has told us repeatedly that he does not intend to give 
immediate effect to that part of the proposed appropriation item which deals with 
the control of forest devastation. There can be, therefore, no immediate need for 
that part of the language wliich .some of us can not support and which in any event 
leaders in Cbngress will not permit to pass. You gentlemen understand, of course, 
that any new language in the appropriation bill is .subject to a point of order by one 
man and that the man wh» makes the point of order is not required to give any 
reasons for doing so. He simply says, "Mr. Speaker I object," iUid designates 
whatever new language ho objects to, and that lansnage goes out. There is, there- 
fore, in my judgment no chance of this particular language remaining in thial bill. 



38 

But even if I am entirely mistaken in my estimate of tlie facts and tlieir meaning 
still the question arises whether it would not he wiser for us state foresters as a 
body to unite behind what we are all for, the million-dollar appropriation for fire, 
planting and investigation. In that event, the single point upon which we disagroo 
would be left to be settled independently at a time and in a way such that the In- 
evitable objections of Congressmen and Senators from timber-importing states would 
run no risk of endangering what we arc unanimously agreed on. 

I want this money for Pennsylvania just as much as any of you fellows want it 
for your own state. We were saved fi-om a very uncomfortable situation -to a con- 
siderable extent last spring by the seventy-five hundred dollars that Mr. Pete;s 
wa.s finally persuaded, against his bettor judgment, to put into the state of Penn- 
sylvania, and we are very grateful foi- it. Wo want more money, and we want it 
just as much as any of you, because in relation to the vast forest-area of the 
state we are probably in a good deal worse situation than any of you. I doubt if 
there is anybody here that has any more, except possibly Micliigan, than five mil- 
lion acres of completely devastated lands within the boundaries of the state. We 
want our full share of that Federal money for planting, for forest investigation, 
for fircis, and, so far as the Lord lets us, we Pennsylvanians will stand behind the 
movement as long as the rest of you fellows to get the money for that purpose. 

But I have had long enough experience in Congress to know this, that in the 
final days of the session, and some of you who have had legislative experience will 
be able to support me in this statement, in the final days of the session, at the time 
when appropriations go through, the rush is so great that the opportunity for fin-j 
distinctions disappears, and the chance that the whole item will go put because 
some one individual phrase in it is objected to is multiplied many times. 

It looks to me, if my estimate of the situation in Congress is right, as if the state 
forostere were in a position, if the state-control item is insisted on, in which they 
will automatically prevent the full appropriation in which they arc interested. It 
is always a risky thing to put a new policy into an appropriation bill subject to 
a point of order. It is merely to invite failure to put it into an appropriation bill 
subject to a point of order at a time when it is known in advance that influential 
leadei's of both House and Senate will see to it that it goes out. Now, I want the 
money as much as you do, and if we can all get together behind that part that 
we all are for, I tliink we have a chance to get it, and if not we will not get 
it. (Applause.) 

Mr. WALLACE. I am sure I have been highly entertained and edified by the 
magnificent address of Mr. Pinchot. He and I are old friends and have known 
, each other for twenty years. I want to ask him what would be the effect of rhe 
language of which he spfeaks in the matter of protecting or securing surrounding 
trimbei' on water-sheds. Now, take the state of Alabama and make it an example. 
The state of Alabama is a great lumber-producing state, a great yellow-pine belt 
there. Now, I want to know how that would effect the people ef Alabama. 

Mr. PINCHOT. As to what the working out of tlie policy would be? 

Mr. WALLACE. How would that affect us. 

Mr. PINCHOT. I do not know whether you have seen a report made by the 
Society of American Foresters. That is precisely what I have in mind. 
3 



34 

Mr. WALLACE. Yes, 1 ha\o read that. 

Mr. I'INCHOT. As to this language, I know, of course, very well indeed, that 
no such language will pass in the present appropriation bilL I merely suggest 
substituting one point of ^iew for another. This matter has been fought out for 
a number of years. We have just finished, as some of you gentlemen know, a 
fifteen-year fight to save the coal-lands, to save the oil-lands, and in each case we 
won. In the last session of Congress the fight was finished to save thfe water-power. 
In each case we have passed through the regular series of phases, first, no control : 
second, state control ; third, national control, and in each case national control 
has won out. There will be no legislation on this subject on either side of the house 
for several yeare. It is one of the biggest questions that can come before the people 
of the United States, and it will have to be threshed out at every stage. 

Mr. WALLACE. Mr. Pinchot, would that language which you have suggested 
there in your admirable address, would that contemplate government control of 
private property? 

Mr. PINCHOT. Yes, it would be exactly analagous, for example, to govern- 
ment control of private property by the Interstate Commerce Commission. 

Mr. WALLACE. There would be no such thing as condemnation for public 
use without adequate compensation? 

Mr. PINCHOT. The Intei-state ('ommerce Commission regulates the railroads 
in Pennsylvania and the state gives them police protection. Under the plan I 
have iu mind the states would i)rot('ct from fire. The state taxes the railroads of 
Pennsylvania, and under the plan I have indicated the state would tax forests. 
The Interstate Commerce Commission, a national body, regulates the use and hand- 
ling of private property just as under the plan I have in mind the government 
tlirough the Department of Agriculture and the Forest Ser\-ice in particular would 
regulate the use and handling of commercially held timber-land so far as they 
have correlation to interstate commerce. It would be analogous in both cases, 
an interference with private property rights for the public good. 

The CHAIRMAN. The question is open for discussion. Would anybody like 
to make any inquiry of Mr. Pindiot regarding the essentials of his paper? 

Mr. WOODRUFF. As I listened I heard the word 'forest devastation" several 
times, and for fear that forest devastation might be misunderstood I would ask 
Mr. Pinchot if by any chance he would include in that, as speaking of devasta- 
tion, the devastation of forest by fire. 

Mr. PINCHOT. My judgment is that forest fires are a state question ; taxing 
is a state question ; but the destruction ©f timber-lands by the cutting of timber 
ia a national question. 

Mr. WOODRUFF. When you say forest devastation yon refer to timber cutting? 

Mr. PINCHOT. I do. 

Mr. W. A. GUTHRIE, Chairman Conservation Commission Ind.;ana. May I ask 
• personal question that pertains to our own State's interest? We have the en- 



35 

thusiasm, and I know the outgoing govenior is going to recommend it, and I am satis- 
ficd the incoming governor will recommend it, an appiopriatien for buj-ing this cut 
over timber-land ^^-ithout a suney. How is the best plan for us to buy this? Our 
state contains 22,400,000 acres of which it is estimatfrJ about 800,000 acres in the 
southern part of the state to bo water sh.:'ds of the Ohio river. Two to four hundred 
thousand acres that are suitable for growing timber, but that is all dnided up into 
various farms and small lots. How are we going to buy it? \Yhat kind of a law 
can we pass to reach that. I think that «ur forester suggested a long time bond prop- 
osition, but I am informed by attorneys that we can not do that under our consti- 
tation. What kind of appropriations do we need to make available to get this timber 
for the state? 

Mr. PINCHOT. I can not tell you how to do it. but I shall be mighty glad 
to tell you what we are doing. In the first place, we get once in two years an 
appropriation from the legislature for the purchase of forest lands. For this pre- 
sent two years it amounts to one hundred and thirtj- thousand doUars, but in no 
case are we to pay more than ten dollars an acre. What we do is to ascertain 
where in the state we can get two things together, land that ought t» b« in a 
state forest, and land at a reasonable price. 

I do not need to tell you gentlemen that the fact that the state has some money 
to spend is a perfectly good reason in the minds of a great many why the state 
ought to pay two prices for what the other fellow has to sell. It all has to be 
handled with a great deal of care, but can be handled in such a way as to get 
full value for the state. 

Judge Weodiiiff has sent letters to fifteen hundred laud-owners throughout the 
state of Pennsylvania telling them of what the forest department has in mind, 
and asking them to send in offers. They make those offers on a regular form, 
and in a great many cases we take an option. 

Mr. GUTHRIE. In small amounts which don't hitch up together? 

Mr. PIXGHOT. That, of course, is your trouble." WTiat we are deing here 
is to take up pieces of land wherever thej happen to be, even if they are not 
contiguous te state forests, pro\"ided we know in advance that the area in which 
these particular pieces of land lie is ultimately likely to fall within our five million 
acres. We are very sure that all these lands that we buy wUl never be worth 
any less than they are now, and if the state does not want them, if it holds them 
for ten years and dees not want them, it can sell them and make a large profit 
on tiem. 

Mr. GUTHRIE. We have the right of eminent domain^ but we do not use it. 

Mr. PINCHOT. We have the right of eminent domain also, but we do not use 
it, because it costs too much. We can buy the land cheaper without it. The tnly 
place in which we propose to use it is where there are difficulties in the title which 
can only be cleared up in that way ; and in those cases we shall, so far as possible, 
make a definite agreement with the owners of the land in advance as to the price. 
J do not know whether I have answered your question at all, sir; but I have tried, 

Mr. GUTHRIE. In a way. 



S6 

The CHAIRMAN. If there is iioth;ng further, we will prot-eod with the sym- 
posium. The subject is, "Our timber needs and supplies." Tlie subject has boon 
divided into five sections, Now England, the South, Middle West, the Lake States 
juid the West. The first will be represented by Mr. W. G. Hastings, of Vermont. 

Mr. W. G. HASTINGS. State Forester, Vfrinont. Tiirrc w:is ii<. iiitiniatioii 
concerning the length of time I should occupy so I have; prejiared only a two or 
three-minute paper, feeling that the rest of you probably would do the same, and 
in that way combined we would occupy perhaps half an hour. 

New England is a forest region. Notwithstanding her industrial and agricul- 
tural enterprises, her population, her wealth and culture, and her three centuries 
of development, New England, by the edict of her physical geograpliy, still remains 
a wild-land region, and will continue to be a region where wild lands predominate 
until a political, economic and social order has been created in which agriculture 
is profitable without the use of farm machinery, an impossible time. New England 
passed her heyday as a rural community sixty years ago, and since then the edge 
of the woods has drawn nearer and nearer to New York. 

Of the slightly less than forty million acres comprising the land surface of New 
England, fully three-fourths is unsuited to a higher use than timber-production, 
and of this three-fourths about ninety per cent, is capable of producing forest- 
growth. The remainder is the natural barrens. Expres-ed in acres, there are about 
three and one-half million acres of barrens, including swamp and water ; ten and one- 
half million acres of pasturage or land devoted to higher use, and twenty-eight million 
acres of wild land capable of supporting timber-growth. We have not twenty- 
eight million acres of productive forest, however. Estimates made by the several 
foresters of New England, if I can harmonize their statements correctly, show that 
this area of twenty-eight million acres may be divided into three equal or nearly 
enual parts, namely: first, lands supporting a satisfactory stand of timber contain- 
ing trees of merchantable size in dominating percentages of volume ; second, foi-est 
lands ."-upportiug a satisfactory stand of young timber: and third, forest lands 
supporting an unsatisfactory stand of timber, either young or old, or no timber 
at all. 

The first class, containing nine million acres of mature, or nearly mature, pulp- 
wood and saw-timber, includes within itself the infinitesimal amount of virgin 
forest left standing in the region, and includes also all other stands of timber of 
merchantable size. Except for these virgin stands of a million acres or so, every 
stand of saw-timber in New England has been more or less heavily culled for the 
better classes of material. These culled stands are, therefore, made up of inferior 
sptidcs and poor specimens of good species. At best tJie timber is cullefl stuff 
cruising from five to six thousand feet per acre. These nine million acres of cuUed- 
over, mature or nearly mature stands occupy twenty-two per cent of the area of 
New England, or thirty-three per cent of our absolute forest soil capable of pro- 
ducing forest growth, and support all of the pulpwood and saw-timber in New 
England variously estimated at fifty billion feet. In calling the timber on these 
Jiinc million acres, a satisfactory stand, there is no desire to convey the idea that 
the stand is in any respect all that may be desired, and least of all is it satis- 
factory from the point of view of volume. Such a classification simply means that 
tliere is volume enough present to insure tliat lumbermen will i-eturn for another 
cut. 

The second of the three nine-millon-acre classes of forest \nnd into which our 
forests of New England may be dixiderl coiitains. as expressed above, a satisfactory 
stand 9t young growth not yet sufficiently aged to be considered merchantable for 



cither saw-timber or pulpwood. This second class is the severely cut-orer lands 
which, in spite of fires and other misuse, is restocking to desirable species in vary- 
ing degrees of perfection. The area contains large quantities of cordwood stumpage 
as well as reproduction of both hardwood and softwood species. In speaking of 
the condition of this class as satisfactory there is no desire, as expressed above, 
to convey the impression that the stand as a whole is entirely satisfactory. 

The third class, the nine million acres of land supporting neither timber nor 
reproduction, or supporting worthless stands of either or both, this third class of 
forest land" is the man-made, desolate wastes, and includes the twice-bumed-over 
hillsides, tlie rougli, remote abandoned farms, and forest lands too recently or too 
severely cut over to determine what the future stand is to be, if any. These, to- 
gether with the natural barrens, are the lands which have arrested the attention 
of tlie casual obserAcr, and which bear physical e\'idencp of the serious condition 
our forests are in. 

New England contains one-eighth of her original stand of timber ; her merchan- 
table forest-area has shrunk to one-fourth of its original acreage ; her forests are 
called upon to supply two and four-tenth billion feet of timber yearly in the form 
of lumber, pulpwood, ties, posts and cofdwoed, according to the "Capper Report," 
while the same report places the yearly increment at one and three-tenth billion 
feet. A generation ago she was a heavy exporter of timber ; today she is an im- 
porter of one-third of all timber consumed in her industries and building trades ; 
she is paying more to the already overtaxed railroads in freight rates than it will 
cost to maintain her forests in a producing state equal to the needs of the region. 
The forest wealth of New England has shriveled almost to the vanishing point 
and continues to shrivel. Our forests are at present in a deplorable condition, but 
the situation, serious as it may be, is not hopeless to those «f us who are optimis- 
tically inclined. There still is time to repair the havoc that has been wrought 
in our forests. A regulation period of fifty years, the careful expenditure of a 
few cents per acre tho services of one hundred well-trained foresters and one thou- 
.sand rangers will bring our forests back to normal. 

Dr. ROTHROCK. What about insect depredation in the New England states? 

Mr. HASTINGS. Insect depredation" in the southern portion of New Hamp- 
•sliire and Vermont, I refer to the southern portion of New England because the 
spruce belt of Maine extends considerably farther north, and in the southern por- 
tion it is not as noticable as it is farther north. There is depredation both in New 
Hampshire and Vermont of common knowledge to us all, but the insect trouble 
tJiat arises in Maine I have not seen, and I can not, therefore, speak authoritively 
on it. 

Dr. ROTHROCK. I was rooently informed by a man in the state of Maine 
that in four of the townships in northern Maine an examination had been made 
on the condition of the spruce and fir, and that they had reported that from eighty 
to ninety per cent in certain districts was absolutely gone. A lumberman of very 
wide experience in that region made a remark to me that in regard to the spnice 
so far as the northern part of Maine was concerned, they were at the end of their 
long timber lumbering. 

Mr. HASTINGS. I think it has been stated by those who are in a poaition to 
know, surely I am not in a position to contradict, that the spruce bud worm hag 
done more damage in northern New England and Quebec than fire. 



38 

Dr. ROTIIROCK. In the forest tluit I saw, practically every good sized sprnou 
tr— waa dead or dying, it was the most hopeless situation that I ever saw. The 
'. (iiiiig spriK-e outside whore the clearings were made seemed to be in relatively 
XO«d condition. 

The CHAIRMAN. The ne.xt speaker is the gentleman from the sunny South, 
Mr. John H. Wallace, Jr. 

Mr. JOHN II. WALLACE, Jr., Comm'ssioner of Conservation, Alabama. Gover- 
nor Olcott and gentlemen : I am very sure that I voice the sentiment of every 
gentleman present who is a forester when I say that we are delighted to be in 
Pennsjdvania, and we are especially happy to be in Harrisburg, and we are 
beatified beyond the scale and bliss of dreams of being in this magnificent capitol 
which is one the most wonderful pieces of architecture it has over been my pleas- 
ure to gaze upon. We are happy to be in a state which has given to the nation 
the Honorable Gifford Pinchot, who will go down in history as one of the greatest 
contervBtionists of the country. 

The subject assigned to me is the tirabei-supply of the South and its needs. 1 
do not know that I can say much speaking for Virginia or North Carolina, because 
there are two admirable, estimable gentlemen, here who are more familiar with 
couditiona in those states than I am ; Mr. Jones, of Virginia, and Dr. Holmes, of 
North Carolina. I am especially familiar, however, with the pine-belt, the long-leaf 
or yellow-pine belt. Strange as it miglit seem to you, the South is still a wilderness, 
that is with reference to forest lands. There is but a very small percentage of the 
l«nil cleared. There is still standing in the South a magnificent growth of long-leaf 
or yellow pine. It is true tliat some fifty-odd years ago the matter of the exploitation 
of the timber resources was begun, and that due to this in many sections of that fair 
and wonderful land desolation and despair has been left in the wake. There is in 
the south the reserve supply of long-leaf pine of the American continent. The mills 
during the period of the war worked overtime and produced enormous quantities 
of lumber which they sold for very handsome prices. Now, since the price has gone 
•ff, they are not cutting timber so rapidly. We export from Alabama and from the 
South, 1 suspect, ten times as much lumber as we consume. It has been estimated 
that with tlie supply of long-leaf pine left in the South and that togetlier w^Ith some 
sl!()rt-]^af j)ine or loblolly pine which is left remaining, standing in primeval 
foreata, enough of that pine to last from twelve to fifteen years, and in some of 
the larger holdings probably from twenty to twenty-five j'ears. Now, there is also 
in the South large quantities of .hardwood like the oaks, for quarter-sawing ; they 
make beautiful furniture out of it, take the hickory and make spokes and handles out 
•f il. There is the cyprcps, also the gum. There are still considerable quantities 
of that there, but in the South, just as it has been in New England and NewYork and 
I'f nnfjylvania, the crying need of adequate legislation to save the forest?) from absolute 
i.bliteration never appealed to the people until those forests are about to disappear 
t'rom the face of the eartli. It is time with reference to the South as it has been in 
every part of the country, there is growing in the South millions of acres of second- 
giowth pine. Now, there should be law.s passed by various states which contemplate 
something like this, that is — now just a moment — the men who own that pine-land 
upon which that second-growth timber is growing do not feel able to hold it for thirty 
or forty years until it reaches maturity. Now, that is the point here. Now, what 
has got to be done? We must pass a law providing that the states can enter into a 
ontract with individuals owing such land to grow timber on it and exempt it from 
taxation until the time that timber is ready to be cut, and then impose a severance 
tax at the time of cutting, or otherwise participate in the profits to be derived from 
that timber. Now, that is a practicable and feasible plan. When we do that there 



39 

will be millious of acres of land in the South that can be exempted from taxation and 
upon which timber can be grown. As I see it, that proposition is workable all over 
the United States. For instance, there was a law passed by the last legislature of 
Alabama providing for a ten-cent tax en; every ton of coal mined in the state. 
They said it was unconstitutional. They went into court, and the supreme court 
has upheld it. That is directly in line with the surface tax in the matter of cutting 
timber trees ; but, as Mr. Peters most admirably said in his address this morning, 
or rather this afternoon, and as Colonel Greeley stated this rriorning, that the 
individuid who enters into that contract with the state must absolutely agree to 
grow timber on it, and the state in return must see to it that it is protected from 
the ravages of forest fire. I can safely say that with the timber in sight in Alabama, 
the actual existing timber, and the second-growth timber about to ripen and coming 
on to ripen year after year in the state, that there is still in sight in the South 
f mber to last the people not only of the South, but all other parts of tlie country 
as well, at least fifty years. 

The CHAIRMAN. Are tluTc any inquiries to be directed to Mr. Wallace? 

The middle west will be repi-esented by Mr. Edmond Seorest, of Ohio. 

Mr. EDMOND SECREST of Ohio, Gentlemen: Ohio was among the foremost 
states in the production of hardwood timber. The original stand is estimated to have 
contained approximately 170 billion feet, which covered some 90c^ of the total land 
area. The present forest area of 3,200,000 acres contains approximately 10 billion 
feet of all classes of timber. Of thi.s amount first quality virgin saw material 
will not exceed 1 billion feet. 

The inherent forest lauds of the state located in the |South-eastern quarter, 
approximately 1,000,000 acres contain second growth hardwood stands in large 
tracts of considerable potential value, but the niei*chantable siaw-timber is of 
negligible quantity. While this section, will in a large part produce thq future 
forest products of the state, it will require at least 50 years with intensive protec- 
tion against fire to produce saw-timber, much of which will be of relatively inferior 
quality, because of the cumulative injury by fire, and other forms of devastation. 

The remaining 2,000,000 acres of forest land are more or less a, part of the 
lictter agricultural districts of the state andi they contain the gi-eat bulk of the 
r( maining stands of old growth. Many of these farm woodlands exist on soils of 
greater or loss agricultural value. They are not menaced by fire, but 84% are 
heavily grazed, and the young growth is nil or of inferior quality. The practice 
of grazing has produced a change in forest conditions which is responsible for the 
rapid deterioration of the old growth. The totid increment in the heavily grazed 
woodland is small, and since some 1,750,000 acres of Ohio's farm woodlands arc 
grazed the annual gi'owtb for the state is low. It probably will not exceed 25 board 
feet per acre. This not only portends serious consequences in- respect to future 
timber supplies, but we find ourselves in the position where the great bulk of the 
remaining old growth timber is contained in woodlands which for the most part 
exist on agricultural soils. This condition will tend to jeopardize the present avail- 
able reserves, because the woodlands are not only subject to the devastating in- 
fluences of heavy grazing, but arc being cleared for tillage and grazing in a manner 
which does not take into account the economical utilization of the timber. Up until 
a few years before the European war, when stumpage values were comparatively low, 
siuw logs of more inferior quality were disposed of by methods much the same as thote 
cKi ployed by the early pioneers. 



40 

The situation affecting tlie wood-using industi'ies of Ohio is acute. Owing to tii<; 
superior guu'ty of oak, [K)ijlar, liickory, and walnut tlie state has been one of the 
foremost in tne number and output of its hardwood manufacturing establishments. 
For a nunibi r of years ibis industry flourished, and in addition Ohio exported con- 
siderable quantities of hardwood lumber. Today the industries remaining, import 
at least 75% of the raw wood material used. During the past decade many of the 
smaller plants have gone out of business or moved elsewhere, owing to the exhaustion 
of the timbc)- within reasonable distances. 

There is a distinct feeling of uneasiness among the larger users of wood. The 
following quotation is from a letter written by the head of a large box company 
in Ohio, which is quite representative of the attitude of the industries using hard- 
woods. "We desire to take this opportunity of urging that something definite be 
done in regard to reforestation in Ohio. We have some very decided opinions upon 
this subject, and have been in a position to see and appreciate just what the de- 
pletion of our woodlands mean to the future generations, and even to those men 
living in the present. 

"This plant will be obliged to close within two years for lack of timber. Basswood 
is practically extinct. We are today the only factory in Ohio making berry baskets, 
the third largest in the United States. Next season we shall have to cease the manu- 
facture of basswood' berry baskets and use maple. Had tlie state taken hold of 
tliis problem even 20 years ago, berry growers would not have to send to the South 
next year for berry packages." 

The same condition exists in the industries using hickory and, ash. Yellow poplar 
formerly used extensively for ho>ise sidi;ig is now rarely employed for the purpo»<». 
There is litth; Xo. 1 poplar stnnd'ng in Ohio woodlands today. 

The stumpagc values of Ohio timber have doubled during the past decade. In 
some cases prices paid in 1017 and 1018 had increased three fold over those of 
1913. Instances are on record whore ash stumpage was sold for .^75.00 per thousand. 
Transactions where $40.00 to $65.00 were paid were quite common. White oak No. 
1 logs brought from $30.00 to $55.00 per thousand stumpage. Values have decreased 
somewhat since 1918 in sympathy with the general slump in the hardwood market. 
There is at the present time, in fact, very little .stumpage moving, but prices have 
held up remarkably well. 

Good road-s, accessibility, close proximity to the manufacturing points are re- 
sponsible for high stumpage pi-iees in Ohio. The annual cut in Ohio is 250,000,000 
board feet. We consume annually approximately 1,750,000,000 board feet, or seven 
times more than we cut. 

Till- CIIAIRMAN. The next gentleman is from the Lake States, Mr. C. L. 
Harrington. 

Mr. C. L. HARRINGTON, Commissioner of Conservation, Wisconsin, Gentlemen : 
I assume that the Lake States include Minnesota, Wisconsin and Michigan. Being 
personally acquainted witli the situation in Wisconsin, I will discuss it first. 

Now, what have we by way of a timber supply in Wisconsin at the present time? 
Wisconsin embraces about thirty-five million acres. About eighteen million acres 
lie in the southern part of the state, and today it is a large agricultural region. 
It has a generally rolling topography, becoming somewhat rough in the south- 
western part of the state, but can not be considered as any thing but an agricultural 



41 

section, where one farm abuts right up against the other. Our timber supply can 
be found to a certain extent in this eighteen or nineteen million acres in the way 
of farmers' woodlots, and today we know that there is a considerable supply of 
very good maple and basswood, some eak, and a considerable amount of walnut, 
and tlie general hardwoods cut from the fanners' woodlots in southern Wisconsin. 

Northern Wisconsin has about sixteen million acres which include about thirty 
counties. Of this sixteen million acres ten million acres are cut over for the most 
part. At the pi-esent time about four million acres are in farms and the balance 
of two to two and a half million acres is in forests. These timber stands would run 
from five to eight thousand feet, probably average about seven thousand feet. At 
the present time Wisconsin cuts something over a billion feet of timber a year. We 
have upwards of three hundred saw mills working in the state ; that is, taking the 
entire state. We have probably fifty mills that would be considered good, big mills 
located in northern Wisconsin. There is upwards of twenty-five billion feet of lumber 
standing in Wisconsin at the present time, and there are a number of the larger 
mills which have cuts of from fifteen to twenty-five years ahead of them. Now, this 
timber is made up almost entirely of hemlock, birch, maple, elm and the general 
hardwoods. In other words, the supply of timber at the present time in Wisconsin 
consists chiefly of mixed hardwoods and hemlock witli a certain amount of white 
pine and Norway pine scattered in here and there. There are very few stands of 
white pine left in the state. 

As to the timber supply of the future it is problematic just where it is coming 
from, so far as Wisconsin is concerned. We are a flat land state, relatively speaking. 
In northern Wisconsin and to a certain extent in the central part of the state, we 
know of approximately three million acres of land which because of low fertility 
co.uld be classed as forest land. Now, over two million acres of these lands •the''" 
is a big question mark today as to whether they are going to be agricultural lauds 
or forest lands, and fo** the remaining two million acres we can say with a good deal 
of assurance that eventually they are going to be used for timber production. Even 
in our most highly developed counties along the south Wisconsin border we find 
from ten to thirty per cent of the land still remaining in timber growth, as farmers' 
woodlots. When passing by on the train or traveling over these counties by auto 
one often gets the impression that they are pretty well wooded on account of one 
■^^-oodlot succeeding the other, or one stand of timber succeeding the other right across 
the country. So, all told, Wisconsin is pretty well provided for at tlie present time 
so far as timber is concerned, and the probabilities are that twenty or thirty years 
from now, unless something unusuiil happens, and unless the big agriculture 
momentum which is so pronounced in Wisconsin at the present time is modified, 
Wisconsin will have to look to other states for the bulk of the forest products she 
yearly requires. 

Concerning the needs of Wisconsin at the present time, let me say we have a 
great number of wood-using industries within the state. I believe we rank tliird in 
the matter of paper and pulp-production in the Union. We have large furniture 
factories, sash and door establishments and excelsior mills of considerable size, 
and about ten years ago Wisconsin in her wood-using industries was using up a 
billion feet of forest products. That does not include saw mills nor does it take into 
account the stocks and the sales of retail yards located in nearly every settled town 
and hamlet in the state ; nor materials going into mines. Even though wo are large 
users of wood products at the present, I believe that board for board, Wisconsin 
still cuts enough annually to supply her needs. This situation of course is rapidly 
changing. As the years go by there is no question in my mind but that a great 
many of these woodusing industries a7e going to pass from the state or go out of 



42 

business. We know that the big saw mill iis going to pass. Wo know tliat a con- 
siderable number of the short-lived industries, like heading mills, barrel and stave 
and small box establishments will move out. It will bo a considerable number of 
years before the paper and pulp mills will cease operation. We find them extending 
out in every direction. At the present time spruce bolts are rafted across Lake 
Superior from tlie nortli shore of Minnesota or over from the Canadian shore, and 
yet that was unthought of eight or nine years ago. 

It is pretty hard to tell just what tlie ultimate needs of Wisconsin arc going to be 
in regard to foi-ost pi-oducts. Wisconsin is going to have a big rural population. 
'Flic large areas of potentially fertile and valuable soils of the undeveloped sections 
of the state and the great enthusiasm for agricultural development at the present 
time indicate very clearly as to AVisconsin becoming a great agricultural and 
industrial state. As such she will need lai'ge quantities of forest products in the 
future and it is my belief that we in Wisconsin have practically passed for all 
time into the class of timber-importing rather than timber-exporting states. I am 
not very well acquainted with the general circumstances in Micliigan and Minnesota. 
I think Michigan is a good deal iu the same position today as Wisconsin as regarding 
her timber supplies and needs. I know that there are vast quantities of hemlock 
and hardwoods in northern Michigan. I think Minnesota is probably more favorably 
situated than either of the other two states. As far as I know, she is more favorably 
situated so far as timber supplies are concerned. I think of the three states that 
Wisconsin has less land that could be classed as forest land. I think that on some 
of the lands that I have been over in Minnesota there is no question as to its 
adaptability for forests and nothing else. It seems to me that Minnesota and 
possibly Michigan — I am not very well acquainted there — are left a much better 
opportunity in the long run to grow the timber they need than Wisconsin. 

The CHAIRMAN. The west will be rejiresented by Mr. W. .1. MorrcU, State 
Forester, Colorado. 

Mr. W. J. MORRELL, State Forester Colorado. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen : I 
am from out where the West begins. The chief representative of the West who will 
respond for the West, our chairman, the governor of Oregon is very much where the 
West leaves off. The next stopping-point is the Far East. It is only through the 
courtesy of the old chief, Mr. Pinchot, that I am assigned a place. on this program, 
because the thought came only this afternoon to him, and it is especially fitting 
ill at the West should be represented by ci governor, especially a governor from 
Oregon, possibly from the city of which the following story is told. Tlie city 
council of Salem once wrote to the council of an ancient city in Massachusetts 
suggesting that it was inconvenient and inadvisable that two important cities in 
the United States should be named Salem, and the city council of Salem, Oregon, 
suggested tliat Salem, Massachusetts, cliange its name. The West is not noted for 
modesty, and it is particularly fitting that the response for the West should be given 
by no less a ixrsonage than a governor. It would be a crime for me to mar this 
How of eloquence which we have heard Iiere today, and so I think I shall give my 
time to the Governor of Oregon, unless there are some specific questions which any 
(if yon might desire to ask concerning conditions in Colorado, which, by the way, is 
not a great timber-producing state, for as you know its forests are chiefly valuable 
as protective forests, maintaining the beauty of our summer resorts, our n.ountains, 
and to maintain our supply of irrigation water. However, I am gratified at the 
honor shown Colorado and to myself for this privilege of giving my time to the 
governor, who will represent the AVest. 

Mr. ALFRED GASKILL, State Forester, New Jersey, in the chair. 



48 

Tlie CHAIRMAN. The conference is waiting, I am sine, to hear from the 
governor of Oregon. 

(iUVERNOR OLCOTT. Gentlemen, this talies me unawares. I knew notlang of 
Ihis, but a little later on I may have something to say about our problems out there 
and the conditions surrounding, but the gentleman from Colorado's mention of the 
West's modesty is a true story, and it might interest you to know the facts behind 
it, if you have not read of it — about the little town of Salem, Oregon, eighteen 
thousand people, asking the large town of Salem, Massachusetts, to step off the dock 
and give the Salem of the West tlie privilege of the sole, exclusive control over that 
name. The absurdity of it is shown by the fact that Salem, Massachusetts, as every- 
body knows, is the old witch-craft town of the early history of our country. The 
inside story is that tlie Salem, Oregon, Chamber of Commerce, which has for tlie 
size of the town quite an active organization, lost their secretary. They temporarily 
put in a young chap of about eighteen years of age, just graduated from high school 
and business college, and he, like a good many of us at that age, thought he was 
some pumpkins. The older I get the more I realize the little I know. I remember 
when I came out of business college I returned to my home in Illinois and attempted 
to show my father how to keep his books. He was an old New England business 
man, and you know how far I got with that. But at any rate this young chdp 
thought it was not more than right that Salem, Oregon, possessing all the beauty 
claimed for it, should have the exclusive use of the name, so be wrote the Chamber 
of Commerce of Salem, Massachusetts, asking them to renege absolutely on the 
name. It got out in the press, but all the city of Salem, Oregon, got was advertising, 
that, without spending a dollar, was worth thousands of dollars to it. It is a joke 
witli them that it was thought to be an advertising stunt ; as a matter of fact it 
was just a boneheaded iilay. We heard of it in the New York papers, the Philadel- 
phia papers, the Boston papers, the general tenor of which implied a compliment 
to the West on its initiative and originality in advertising, in devising a scheme 
Ihat worked* so well. It was just a schoolboy's bono headed play; but it seems to 
have secured results even if different than that intended. 

The CHAIRMAN. Before passing to the next subject on the program, is it 
advisable to question whether there should not be something like a summary of 
this symposium, the bringing together of the representations and conditions that 
have been decided? I ask if it is in the mind of anyone to take up a few moments 
with that question. If not, haviflg heard from Vermont, let us hear from Massa- 
cliusetts, the Massacliusetts plan for reforestation by Mr. Bazeley. 

Mr. W. A. L. BAZLEY, Massachusetts. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen : The 
bone-head from Salem, Oregan, is not so very far away from me in appearing 
before you men and talking on forestry. In the first place, I know absolutely 
nothing about forestry except for my love of the outdoors and the way in which 
I have played with forestry on my farm in Worcester county. I first got interested 
in tlie ways of forestry by being one of the victims of the chestnut blight whXeh 
struck Massachusetts, and when I had cut down one hundred and fifty acres of 
seventy-year-old chestnut it was not with a view of continuing the timber supply 
of the United States, it was with a view of self-gratification, it was my eye for 
beauty that impelled me to plant that area witli white pine, and I rather think 
I am one of the few men, who have the position of state foresters, who before he 
knew anything about forestry planted one hundred and fifty acres of land to white 
pine. Now, when Major Stuart also asked me to say something here on Massa- 
chusetts state forests, we were in the position of the secretary from Salem. We 
have in Massachusetts what we call state forests.. It is an absolute misnomer ; they 
should be called state plantations. Before the state undertook anything at all about 



u 

fifty years ago a few men in the state down in one pine region, around in Plymouth 
county, started some plantations of pine which have been very successful, and my 
chief forester tells me that it has always been with a great deal of doubt that 
lumber men in the country have heard the stories of the growth that those planta- 
tions have made. The first official plantations in Massachusetts, as one might call 
them, were made by the Metropolitan water board, which board supplies the 
water for the city of Boston. They conceived the idea of planting the lands which 
were adjacent to their water supplies, and in the year 1900 began such planting. I 
believe now they have upwards of three thousand acres of land in very successful 
plantations. In 1904 the forestry department in Massachusetts was started. It 
was only started in a small way, and for maQy years it gave nothing but technical 
advice, did no forestry business of its own, a.s we had a very small and rather 
hazardous beginning. In 1908 the legislature passed our so-called reforestation act. 
The reforestation act in Massachusetts allows any citizen of Massachusetts to turn 
over to the state, either by selling or by gift, tracts of land not exceeding eighty 
acres, which the state can take and replant, and then any time witliin ten years 
the former owner of that land has the privilege of repurchasing the same, paying 
the state the money that has been spent on it for planting, care, and so forth, and 
in case it was sold to the state in the first place four per cent of the Original price. 
Now, that has been a wonderful educational method of bringing reforestation 
before the people of Massachusetts. At the present time there are about one 
hundred and seventy of those lots, reforestation lots, embracing about seven thousand 
acres, and they are scattered in the various parts of our small state. You must 
remember that we have only five million acres in the state of Massachusetts. The 
seven thousand acres are, tlierefore, scattered along the state in one-hiuidred-and- 
seventy-acre lots, and the people in the vicinity of those lots take a great deal of 
interest in watching tliem grow. Of course, they are only beginning to show what 
they can do, and the people are getting interested in them. In 1914 a special com- 
mission was created by the legislature, known as the state forest commission, 
whose duty it was to buy up wild and waste lands, of which we have about one 
million acres, at a purchase-price of not more than five dollars an acre, forming 
them into state forests and planting them, and using them not only for forest pur- 
poses, but also for park purposes, to enlist the good-will of the people and the 
tiicouragement of forestry, and also to try and get th^ people out in the open air. 
That commission proceeded very slowly, and in six years they only succeeded in 
^■■•tting altogether fifteen thousand acres of land, di\'ided into five so-called state 
reservations. In 1919 the department of conservation was formed in the revamping 
of our whole state government, whereby we reduced the commissions from one 
hundred and seventeen down to twenty departments, and in the department of 
conservation was placed the division of forestry, the division of fisheries and game, 
the division of animal industry, and the authority of the state forest commission 
was turned over to the state forester. When I was asked by Governor Coolidge 
to take charge of that department, I might say that I had everything from trees to 
mad dogs, and wondered why on earth they had done such a thing. Now that I 
am s])eaking, and referring to what Mr. Piters has said, in regard to the formation 
(if the department of forestry, it seemed perfectly absurd to me to take hold of 
a department with the division of animal industry in it. Of course, it is a con- 
.servation measure, but it does not belong with forestry, it does not belong with fish 
and game; it was just a neat play of the man at the head of that division who did 
not want to get into the agricultural department, and by scouting around biifore- 
hand -with friends in the legislature and getting an agreement that he should not be 
abolishod, his was tJie only one of one hundred and seventeen commissions in the 
state tJiat was not abolished. He was taken up bodily and put into the department 
of con»«rvation as his department was constituted then. If any of your states con- 



45 

template revamping yonr dcpartmoiits, get busy and pick the units you want to 
get in with, then make friends with the legislature. Now, they made another mis- 
take in rev.amping us, and that was that under tlio law the conservation commissioner 
had to be the director of one of the divisions, and Governor Coolidge designated 
nio as state forester. It did not take me long to realize that ihe scheme of the 
legislature of saving one salary would never work out, and after serving in both 
capacities for one year and giving my entire attention to the division to which 
J was assigned, and very little attention to tlie other two divisions for which I am 
responsible. I have succeeded In getting the supervisor of administration to recom- 
mend that tlie conservation commissioner shall not be a director of one of the 
divisions, but should be head of the department, and that there should be a din- 
sii'nal director for each three divisions. I am perfectly sure from jour talk that 
that would be according to your views. Last year we had a very interesting chance 
ro size up the Massachusetts scheme of awakening interest in reforestation. The 
.■Massaohusetts Forestry Association got the bee in its bonnet that the time had 
come to try and get a great deal larger scheme of reforestratibn started in Mas- 
sachusetts. It was the first year that under the revamping of our constitution we were 
to act under the initiative and referendum, and they decided that they would try 
it out. The secretary went over the state, passed circular petitions in various towns, 
and we found that the returns from the towns that had these small reforestation 
plots in them had no difficulty in getting signatures for the greater work for the 
stafe to do. Everybody signed the paper as soon as it was brought to them. The 
consequence was that when they brought that petition to the legislature for legisla- 
tion on reforestation they had thirty-six thousand signatures and it did not cost 
tlicm a cent to collect them. When the bill came before the legislature it called for 
the taking of two hundred and fifty thousand acres of the wild and waste lands at 
a price not to exceed five dollars an acre, the expenses to be borne by a bond issue. 
That was too new aTi idea for Massachusetts altogether. In the first place, the 
legislature did not want to pass the amount of money necessary for two hundred 
and fifty thousand acres, in the second place tliey would not look at a bond issue, 
but in the final analysis they were absolutely scared to death at not passing 
something as long as it was the first petition brought up from the people on the 
initiatve and referendum. We spent several months trying to figure up some scheme 
that we could get the legislature to agree to and which would be suitable to the pro- 
ponents of the legislation. The last week of the legislature they passed a b'll direct- 
ing me to buy one hundred thousand acres of wild and waste land at an average 
])rico of five dollars an acre, and to reforest the same, allowing me three million 
dollars which I could dtaw on at any time, the only direction being that I must buy 
the land in fifteen years. We have purchased under that act about fifteen thousand 
acres since the first of October. Now, this is a case where it may apply to your 
finestion about Indiana. I do not belir-ve that in the .state of Massachusetts it is a 
business-like proposition to have less than six or seven thousand acres of contiguous 
land to adnxinister, byt I ilo believe that the educational value of having a smaller 
plot of land is of so much raoi-e importance at the pi'ei-ent time that whorev* r I can 
get five hundred acres in one plot I am taking it, and hoping to get in the very 
immediate vicinity of that five-hundred-acre plot more land, building up my seven 
oi eight-lhousand-acrc or ten-thousand-acre plantation from that as a nucleus. 1 
believe the educational value to the i^eople, to get them interested to do this refores- 
tation work on their private lands, is worth the extra amount in administration fees. 
One otliej- thing on the purchase of these lands. Of cours?, it was conteni' Inted 
that all the purchases be made fi-om the wild and waste lan'dsf wh'ch are not pro- 
ducing anytliing today, but I am going on the thoory also that it should be our care 
not to allow any more wild and waste lands to be manufactured. So I am going to 
Ihe lumbeiTnen and asking them where they are cutting off timber whether they 



46 

will sell mo that land when they get through with it, at the same time agree to cer- 
tain reservations in their cuttings. I have all of ten thousand acres of land, where 
the lumbermen are simplj- cutting out the soft wood, which are about twenty-live 
per cent of the holding, and tliey ai-e not touching any of the hardwood bf^low 
ten-inch stumpage at the ground and a six-inch stumpagc on the soft wood. I 
am also getting tliose men to leave all crooked and seed trees that are practically 
worthless for lumber no matter how large they are, and they are leaving tliem on 
our land; my idea being that instead of ha^^ng such large tracts to reforest we 
can get in there early after the lumbermen and reforest just the laud that has been 
cleared by them, in the midst of tJie hardwoods. The state is getting a very val- 
uable asset which it can afford to hold for a number of years where the lumber- 
men will not. Whether I shall get caught up on that by some -legislative bill I 
do not know, but I am taking a chance while the going is good. 



We have also in Massachusetts seven reservations which have been bought by 
the state Avhich cover about fifteen thousand acres, and which might be called 
beauty spots or scenic sights, which cover the mountain tops, and these have been 
bought by tlie state in conjunction with the counties, the state paying the pur- 
chase price, putting them in the care of special commissioners, the counties paying 
all the expenses of the administration. Very little work has been done on them 
except on Mount Wachusctt, where tliey have had a very interesting experiment 
with prison labor. One particular law in relation to tlie forest is that wherever 
possible w-e shall use prison labor, who are trusted. Lying right outside of the 
city of Worcester w^e have dkawn vei-y heavily on the county jail there and have 
been very successful, indeed, in replanting Mount Wachusctt with that prison 
labor. We found they did better work than all the day-labor we could hire. 
Tlie men took an interest in it and were glad to work there, I was interested in 
another way. I was on the prison commission at the time that they went in, and 
they did not have to have any guards on these men. They went out in gangs of 
thirty-five to forty men, ajid it was understood in those gangs that if any man 
escaped from the gang that was woi'king that day the rest of the gang did not 
go out again. The significant thing that we saw there was one man tried to 
escape and he was nearly killed by the rest of them, but that was the only escape 
that was tried in that whole reforestation business. It wiis a very success- 
ful thing. Since the Volstead Act came in we can not call on prison labor so much 
because we do not have the petty offenders and we cj>.n not get any prison labor at 
aU. 



We have in Massachusetts three state nurseries at the present time, and the 
output for the last five years has been one million and a half transplants per 
year. Last year we put out two million and a half, and we are immediately 
enlargiiig now to an output of five million and looking at "a ten-million basis just 
a.'^ quick as we can get the nurseries in condition, not only for our planting, but 
because one man put a nigger in the wood-pile that was gotten tlirough in tliat 
forestry bill. There was a joker in that bill tliat I was compelled to furnish 
plants to cities and towns free for use in their town forests. We have been 
making a rather fair income in selling transplants at cost for the last two years 
and where one city has been taking ten to fifteen thousand trees a year at seven 
to ten dollars a thousand, we are now receiving requests for nest year of one 
liundred thousand free trees with the expectation of jumping to two hundred 
and fifty thousand just as quick as I can grow them. It is not altogether a bad 
joker, it just shows that there is a gi-cat interest in Massachusetts in bringing the 
land back to forest condition. 



47 

At Uie present time our cutting is between three and four million feet a year 
and we are importing two-thirds of the lumber we use. At the hearing on this 
big forestry bill last year two of the largest lumberman in the state made the 
statement that their freight charges for lumber that they brought into Massa- 
chusetts to sell was more than the cost of the lumber. I am glad to say that one 
of those lumbermen was in the legislature and helped me very much in getliiig 
the bill through,, and the other one has just come into the legislature and is going 
to be a chairman I hope of a new committee of conservation which is to be a sub- 
division of our legislature from now on. So I am looking for a good deal of sup- 
port in anything we want. 

Now, as I have said before, I do not know anything about forestry. When I 
was put there I told the governor that t went there with the feeling that I did 
not know anything about forestry, that what I was going to do was to look at it fi'om 
the outside standpoint and the business man's administration instead of thp de- 
partment. When I took the department I found good men there, splendid men, 
in the personnel of the department. I found lots of red tape and I found very 
little responsibility given to tlie men in charge of the various work. I have always 
believed in business, (and I do not see why it should not be true in state business) 
in picking a man out for a job, giving him a single thing to do, and then if he 
does not do it hold him accountable for it. Don't have two or three men tied up 
in reforestation work each one not knowing just where his line is, but tell him 
just exactly wherel his line comes ; then nobody is going to bother him as long 
as he does his job, and if he does not do his job he is going to get out. I believe 
we have got more work done this year than has ever been done before, and at less 
expense, and I think with a great deal less friction between the inside i.nd the outside 
on that account; the men knew when they said a tiling that they were going to be 
backed up, and they knew that they had authority as to all matters of state policy 
to take care of everything in their particular end of the job. As I said, this 
reforestation game with us I do not consider a forest job at present, because 
save for a few years of planting we have not any such thing as state forest ; I 
tlierifore put all our ^o-called state forests into the hands of our .state fii'e warden, 
because I do not see any sense in roi'orcstatiou unless your fire control is good, 
and until he tells me that a certain tract is prepared for planting I am not going 
to plant it. I am not going to put in half a million trees without any fire pro- 
tection other than a general fire protection in the future. Where wc arc getting 
these plots which I consider call for future growth of forest, they must be pro- 
tected, especially for experimental purposes, and where tliose places occur I am 
going to have fire lines around those reservations and through those reservations 
and have them properly patroled before they are planted. 

Just one other thing and then I will let up. It might be a help to some others. 
We have had a great many complaints in the last few years from the devastation 
that is.' caused by automobilists. It has increased tremendously since automobiles 
have come into use generally, the stealing of Christmas greens and the cutting 
down of trees. Now, it has come forcibly to us because our plantations are get- 
tinj^ just to the age when they look like bully Christmas trees, and tlie automobilist 
ih coming alo!ig and filling his car up from anybody's land. ' He does not care 
whose it is. They are only wild trees and' they take them with them, thereby 
ruining the plantations, or at any rate carrying off property from another man, 
wlicrc the value is very little in itself, but whore it has taken ten or twelve years 
to bring the tree there and where the man wants it to grow for forty or fifty 
>ears more. I have just succoed''d in getting an arrangement with our registrar 
of automobiles, and we have published it in every paper in Massachusetts, that 
any man convicted for stealing trees or shrubbery from any man's property upon 
«on\iction wiU have his license taken back. Now, a man does not cure about fiva 



48 

dollars" fine if he has got one hundred dollurb worth of trees on his automobile, 
but he does not want to lese his license on his automobile. We have worked that 
in conjunction with our hunting licenses where we found that there was a great 
deal of complaint from the farmers all around my county. Before I went into 
office, their fruit, their vegetables and berries were stolen by the hunters ; so this 
.\.ar we got the highway (leinirtmont to agree that anybody convicted of stealing 
from a farmer who had a hunter's license would have that hunter's license revoked. 
After two convictions this year wq had no further complaints from farmers in 
our department. 

Mr. FINCHOT. May I ask a question? I was very deeply interested in 
Mr. Bazelcy's talk on the Volstead law. We are in the same fix in this state. We 
have arranged with the state institutions to do our tree rai.siug for us, and we 
have lembarked on the program of raising twenty million trees a year at the 
penitentiaries and insane asylums, and so on. I have laid before the director* 
of these institutions the statement, aa strongly as I knew how, that here was 
the kind of labor that would fit the men they have. I was particularly interested 
in what you said in regard to prison labor, and was going to ask if there is any 
printed account. If you would give me a couple of typewritten pages, I will ap- 
preciate it, and will see to it that it gets to the very men in Pennsylvania with 
whom I am taking that work up. 

The ("IIAIRMAN. Are there any further comments? 

If not. the next paper will be on Stock Surveys in the State, by Mr. F. W. Besley, 
of Maryland. 

Mr. F. W. BESLEY. State Forester, Maryland. 1 am going to tell you very 
briefly and very simply of the system of forest surveys tliat was undertaken in 
Maryland at the time that the forestry work was inaugurated, in 1906. We felt 
tliat it was exceedingly important for us at the outset to learn at first-hand just 
"what we had in the way of forest resources, very much as the business man makes 
an inventory of his stock in order that he may more successfully and more intelli- 
gently conduct his business. Fortunately, in Maryland at that time there existed 
very good base maps. The state geological survey for a numbi-r of years in co- 
operation with the United States geological survey had been prepaiing topographic 
maps of the different counties in the state. At the time we began our forest 
surveys probably tliree-fourth? of the state had been covered in that way. 
In addition to topographic maps there were geological maps, and soil maps of 
many of the counties, so that we had a very good framework to begin with. Since 
these surveys of the minerals and of the soils had been found valuable, it offered 
a very good suggestion of carrying out the same thing in regard to our forest 
areas. Maryland has a variety of conditions. We have the coastal plane, tlie 
rolling country, the uplands, and the mountains, practically all of the conditions to 
be found in any otlier state. So the kind of w-ork that was done tliere may be carric'd 
out equally well in other states no matter what may be the surface conditions. We 
have found that those surveys are exceedingly important in the first place as giving 
us a reliable inventory of all our forest resources, and! as a basis for an intelligent 
state forest policy. The forest maps are of great help in preparing fire plans. 
Knowing where the bulk of the forest lands are situated it is possible to see at a 
glance where are the greatest fire hazards and better locate firo wardens. We hava 
found them ©f inestimable value in many ways and use them constantly. 



49 

The first requisite in. establishing the forest-surveys is a gocwJ base map. Any 
.•state that does not ha\o a good topograpliic map to begin with is very seriously 
liandicapped. I think however that most o£ the states in the East have their 
areas very well covered by these maps of the geological surveys, which are very 
reliable, and that situation is largely met. The second requisite is a good working 
field force that can make maps and estimate timber. In Maryland the county is 
the unit so we worked up each county separately. We used men with considerable 
training in the matter of mapping and some knowledge of timber estimating, send- 
ing one in a county, with a base map upon which was projected in outline the 
\arious forest areas. In this connection we found thnt the geological survey in 
making maps, in, the last fifteen years at any rate, had genendly outlined the 
wooded areas. These aiie in the form of woodland sheets. These sheets have not, 
many of them, been published, but they are on file in Washington, and we copied 
tliem on our topographic base maps; where such data was available. We found 
they were very accurate and helped us enormously in making out forest maps. One 
of the important considerations in making forest maps is that the work shall be 
standardized. If it were physically possible for one man to make all the maps 
so that his ideas of timber stands could be oariied' out in a very uniform waj 
all over the state, it would give the most uniform results but, of course, this is 
impossible. When we started out we took about three or four counties at a time. 
One man was assigned to a county, and then a forester was assigned to supervise, 
in order to keep all the work up to a certain standard. The mapping included the 
outlining of the forest areas, and we noted areas' of five acres or more in extent ; 
but the data als© required the delimiting of forest types. The forest types used 
were commercial types and not forest types as generally understood. In most 
of Maryland we have hardwood forests, and we divided the hardwood into three 
general classes, beginning with the very young stands up to about twenty feet in 
height, which we put into the sapling class. Then we took the culled forests, 
which has been cut over, and which generally did not contain a sufiicient amount 
of timber to justify logging operations. We called this the culled class, and in that 
we had abeut three different sub-divisions. Then we took the merchantable class, 
which contained a sufiicient stand of timber on the average to' justify logging 
operations, and this was divided into three or more different classes, the class 
being determined by the average stand of timber per acre. Likewise in the pine 
forests we divided them into a number of different classes, so that when our map 
was completed we had not only the exact location of the different wooded areas, 
but we also had them classified as to the stand of timber. In erder to standardize 
the classification by these individual men the forester worked with them at differ- 
ent times, taking an occasional sample plot in order to check up their estimate. 
This was done all through the period that they were making tlie surveys, so that we 
felt that the results obtained were uniform. In addition to securing the detail 
suryeys or outlines and classifications of forest lands we also gather an immense 
amount of other information. For example, we found out the uses of the forest 
in the different sections. We found out very much about the fire damage in the 
different sections. We found out the number saw mills that were operated and 
the approximate cut of timber in the county, and in fact all the detailed information 
of that sort was secured at the time the surveys were made. 

The method that was used in taking these surveys depended somewhat on the 
character of the country. In the very rough sections where roads were very poor, 
the forester traveled on horseback and worked out from a control point for several 
days at a time. He would cover approximately fifteen square miles per day ; this 
varied somewhat, but that was about the average. Where the roads were suitable 
for vehicular travel, which was the case in probably nine-tenths of the state, he 
used a horse and buggy. He drove over aU the roads and a great many of the 
4. 



60 

private roads, ffot iut» the timber a great deal, ajul iu tliis way he could covei- 
about twenty square miles per day. Then in some sections whore the roads wen; 
exceptionally good and conditions were very favorable, the automobile was used. 
Most of our survey work was done some years before the automobile was used as 
generally as it is now, so that we did not cover very much of the state iu that 
waj', but we found that iu this way approximately fifty square miles p<r day tould 
be covered. 

In regard to the cost of the work, this I believe would run between forty and 
sixty cents per square mile for the field work, even under present conditions. At 
the time we made our surveys the average cost was about thirty-five cents per 
square mile for the field work. We found that working up the field data and 
publishing the maps on this large scale was rather expensive, consequently we 
have published large scale maps of only about one-third of the counties of the 
state. We have twenty-three counties. Here is a forest map of the agricul- 
tural section (exhibiting a map). This county has next to the smallest percentage.: 
of woodland of any county in the state. We use two colors on our maps. The 
red is hardwood, and the green is pine, practically all are hardwood in this par- 
ticular case (indicating). 'Thia represents the forest in one of the heavily forested 
districts of the state (showing another map). This has 62 per cent of forest 
land. These maps were made up in this form of approximately a mile to the 
inch and put inside of one of these forest I'eports, which gives much information 
regarding the forests of the county. We found that probably one of the most 
expensive features of the thing was to publish these maps. These are all litho- 
graphed. This map here I think cost us in thousand lots, thirty-five cents each, 
so that we c«uld not distribute them very generally. Consequently w^e adopted 
another plan ; the large field maps of the different counties were reduced in scale 
to three miles to the inch and published in the Report of the Forests of Maryland, 
giving a small scale forest map, and much detailed information about each county 
of tlie state. We use these maps constantly, and have found tliat even if we did 
not publish them that it would be well worth while for the amount of detailed 
informati«n that is acquired in these surveys. We sometimes have men come in 
who want their wood Ismd examined, and v\ath one of these maps they can very 
frequently locate their particular wood land. 

The question might be raised as to the value of these maps in view of the fact 
that a great deal of cutting is going on and the commercial types will change. 
Maryland is a state that has been almost completely cut over. We have a very 
small percentage of ©riginal growth, so that the changes that are taking place 
are not very radical changes. We find that tliese maps are quite reliable even 
where cutting is going on, because it does not change the types very materially. 

Maryland, I bclie\e, is the only .state that has a coniphte forest .survey. Oilier 
states have done some work along this line, and found it practicable. Where good 
topographic base maps are obtained there is no doubt of its practicability, and I 
believe is the very best way of showing graphically forest conditions. (Applause.) 

The CHAIRMLf\.N. Are there any more remarks on Mr. Besley's description of the 
work in his state? 

If not, the next subject will be "The Acquisition of Lands by the State," by 
i£r. G. W. Woodruff, of the Pennsylvania Department. 



51 

Mr. G. W. WOODRUFF, of the Forestry Department of Pennsylviinia. Mr. 
Chairman and gentlemen : Mr. Pinchot has told you about the value of publicity, 
and so forth, and his publicity man is becoming so very active un"der his good 
tutelage that he hustles me to write out my part on this 'subject, and while I sat 
here listening I could have made a very much better talk than I did if I had 
waited to write it out until afterwards. 

I think tliis question of the acquisition of state fore«t laud di\ides itself up into 
such questions as; Wliy should the state acquire state forest lands? What shall 
it acquire? How shall it acquire it? And then subordinate qiu^stions like title 
examinations, reservations to be allowed in the deeds, the question of taxi-s, pay- 
ments by the state in lieu of taxes, and what use this land will be put to after 
it is obtained. Now, that is about the way I would have appi-oached this subject 
if I had the opportunity after listening to the address of the eminent gentleman 
from Maryland. Nevertheless, I am going to read some of what I did write. 

At our present stage of civilization this country tacitly lassumos, as a general 
proposition, that the state should not enter into any business other than the ad- 
ministration of government affairs. However, this rule has broken down, and will 
continue to break down whenever the public welfare is in material danger. During 
the last war those who were in business, as I happened to be then, were amazed 
by the way that the government stepped in and interfered with private business. 
The company that I was with had some sea-going boats that were commandeerc'L 
One of these boats was earning seventy thousand dollars a month. The govern 
ment look it and said, "Continue to use it in just the same business, and we will 
let you have twenty-three thousand dollars a month ; the rest of it will go into the 
hands of the Shipping Board." We have heard something lately of the rule that 
tli-c state will not interfere with matters that are in the hands of private business, 
but it breaks down, as I say, when tlie public welfare is in grave or material 
danger. 

The protection, production and reproductio}! of forest products, up to the point 
where they are to be manufacturcul and disposed of outside of the fort^sts them- 
selves, has been unconsciously i-ecognized as one of the nuitters vitally affecting the 
public welfare, present and future, and also apparently not safe in the hands of 
private land owners. 

Consequently, as far as I can see, without any open recognition of a revolutio'i 
in the ideas of proper government activity, tlie nation has set aside one hundred 
and fifty-five million acres of land for forest purposes, and Pennsylvania (as an ex- 
ample of state activity in this direction) has already purchased from private owners 
one million one hundred thousand acres of land for state forest purposes. 

Practiically all business interests are directly affected by the less^i^niug of timber 
supply, and all governmental agencies recognize that the nation and the states shall 
own, i)rotect, reforest and afforest enough of the land not valuable for other purpos- 
es than growing forests, so as to meet the principal part of the forest-product needs 
of tlie country. 

So much for why, as far as I can see, we should acquire forest land, not because 
the state wants to go into the business, not because the Federal Government 
wants to go into the business, but because there is a vital economic need to pro- 
tect the public welfare which has forced itself upon the attenticn of tlie stati' mid 
nation and forced them to break every general rule vidthout hesitation. 

In purchasing land for state forest purpose the Pennsylvania Department of 
Forestry lias assumed the foflowing attitude: First, that for the present tliey can 



li;i\(' till' t";i liners' wnodh.ts to tlif jiood sense oF the funnels; sccojul, tliut for the 
present any forest land actually valuable now, or in the immediate future, for lum- 
bering pui'poses should, for tlie present, be h-ft in the liands of tiie private owners on 
the ground that they will not allow valuabh' pr< peity to he destroyed by fire, if they 
can help it ; third, that even the most barren land capalile of reproducing any kind 
of wood-growth, and particularly the land which will recpiire a long period of pro- 
tection to make it productive, should be acquired by the state as rapidly as funds 
are available. 

Following out these principles, the state is likely to buy cut-over and desolated 
f(>rest land at two dollars per acre when it is not worth more than that in the open 
market rather than to buy good forest land worth fifty dollars per acre for, say, 
twenty dollars per acre. This is not the business viewpoint, but it is the attitude 
of the state, which is not thinking so mucli of making an immediate or money 
profit as of protecting tln' welfai-e of its citizens, particularly of posterity. 

During the last summer and f;ill the bureau of lands has witli conside'ralile effort 
secured formal offers of three' hundi-ed thousand acres of laiu). with a promis-; 
that, provided our appropriation of tliis winter requires it, as much more will be 
offered at low prices. Besides this there are six thousand acres being offered 
every day, and beside that three hundred thousand acres are appjfrently in sight if 
we need them, which means that there will be upwards of a million acres ready 
before the legislature cau pass this appropriation bill, and the object of getting 
the offers is in order to get competition, if there is a large appropriation, espec- 
ially to maintain competition amongst those wlio arc willing to sell their land. With 
an appropriation of two million dollars, and only land enough to take up two-thirds 
of that, I can readily understand that those who offer their land would try to get a 
higher price than they would if they knew we had offers worth throe million dollars 
and only two million dollars to pay for it, especially if they understoid that the 
present though of the Department of Forestry is that, otbfr conditions being the 
same, the land offered at the lowest price per acre will be given first consideration. 
The "other conditions" would be particularly the advantage of tlie land in rounding 
out or completing our present state forests, an,d possibly the presence of a house or 
other buildings valuable for use in administi'ation purposes, which would be a small 
factor even in acquiring as little as throe or four hundred thousand acres of land. 

If enough appropriations can be secured this winter there will probably be one or 
more new state forests started, particularly in Sullivan county, whore a compact 
body of more than one hundred thousand acres valuable for state-forest purposes 
can be secured at low prices. 

If you will glance at the map of the state of Pennsylvania (indicating) you will 
see that the state forests make a considerable showing. Pennsylvania is one of 
the small states comparatively speaking, nevertheless it is much larger than others. 
It could be said without casting any reflections upon any one that this area of .six 
million acres which is contemplated to be purchased, is larger than the entire state 
of New Jersey. 

Mr. r.ASKILL. In quantity not quality. 

Mr. WOODRUFF. In quantity it is larger. You will see the green here (in- 
dicating on map) are the present state forests. It is nearly one million one 
hundred thousand aeres. which makes quite a showing- on the map. When it be- 



53 

comes six times us great, as it proijerly should and is believe*! to be necessary b.v 
the present State Forest Commission, you can well imagine that that map would 
look a little like Ireland, especially if these red spots become more conspicuous as 
the game commission sets aside further game refuges. 

The average paid tlius far for state forest land is two dollars and twenty-eight 
cents per acre — I was going to show you, here is a place right in here (indicating) 
where Sullivan, the southern border of Bradford, northwestern Luzerne, and south- 
western Wyoming, come together; there is a piece of land, I think considerably 
over one hundred thousand acres, which may be gotten. There are probably here 
six or seven thousand acres that will ultimately become state forest land. 

There is another place where for(>st service allows it to be made public, and I am 
not giving' anything away, namely, in the four counticvs right here (fnd/cating) of 
Warren, McKean, Elk mid Poorest county, and where are certainly t'iglit humh-cd 
thousand acres there on the head-waters of the Allegheny that abut tn one hinulred 
and fifty thousand acres right over the line in New %ork, and it is within tlie range 
of possibility tliat under the ^^'eek's law it might be extended in tme further south. 
There (indicating) is another place where the state could easily put a forest, several 
hundred thousand acres, and not take any land that anybody will claim is valuabh- 
for agi'iculture at the present stage of the development of agrieullurc and tlie need 
of the country. The average paid thus far for state forci-t~land and is two dollars and 
twenty-eight cents per acre. The law restricts the Department of Forestry to a 
maximum of ten dollars per acre, but the Department does not pay as high even as 
five dollars per acre except with extreme reluctance. 

Dr. ROTHROCK. For the surface right alone. That ten dollars an acre 
contemplates oven taking only the surface. 

Mr. WOODRUFF. Yes, the surface. 

On July seveuth, 1919, a specific condemnation law was passed, which provided 
that if the Commissioner of Forestry believes that land should be acquired for state 
forest purposes, and can not agree upon a price with the owner, or can not find the 
owner, he may enter upon and take jjossessiou of the land, and thereafter, by means 
of viewers appointed by the court, the pi-ice to be paid will be fixed. 

This law has not been tested, but it has already be(>n decided to use it in two 
ways : first, in order to get rid of obnoxious interior holdings ; and second, in order 
fo obtain good titles in particular instances where the land is desirable, and the 
alleged owners are willing to have an agreed verdict at a low price, if the court 
shoulil decide that it has power in the condemnation proceedings to determine the 
right of these alleged ownei's to receixe the purchase price. 

Land has bi'cii piu-cliascd in Pennsylvania for state-forest purposes with idlow- 
ance of all kinds of reservations, such as oil, gas, coal and other minerals, rights of 
way of all kinds timb^ r cutting rights, and so forth ; but the Department of Forestry 
has established the principle that except for rights of way, which may be reserved 
during their use, all reservations must have a definite termination in time ; also 
that mineral ixiservations will not be allowed unless there is reason to believe th'; 
mineral is existent in the land, and that discovery must be made within a definite 
time, and production of mineral known or discovered completed in a definite time ; 
also that timber cutting rights will never be allowed except when the land is highly 
desired for state-forest purposes, and the Department is sure that tlie timber-cutting 
allowed would be exercised upon the land anyway if it were not purchased. The 



54 

tlifory is that since the pri\'iite owner can, under the present state of tlic law, cut as 
closely as lie desires if he n-tains title, the state will be in no worse position, and, 
perhaps, in a better one, if it buys his land subject to timber-cuttiuK rights with 
all reservations at an end as soon as any determinable unit of land is cut over once. 

Tliat is slif,'htly different fiom Mr. B(-sley's idea, as 1 understand it, that he would 
take land wlien tin: euttinj; is complete, that his idea is to actually buy the land and 
take the title and record the deed, and the former owner is left in charge of the land 
witlir the right to cut, and then turn it o-,er to the state, but only the i-ijiht to lut 
according to the res(M•^•ations. Of coui'se. the state> owner of tlie land can Vk- there 
to sec what lie is doing all the time. 

Jn I'ennsyhania every kind of utilization of llie land iind resources of the state 
forest i.s allowed either by specific law or 1>> general iiower granted in the act 
of February 25th, 1901, permitting the State Forest Commission to establish such 
rules for the control, managem^nt, protection and development of the state forests as 
in their judgment will conserve the inter( sts of (lie commonwealth. Such utilization 
includes camping permits ; recreational slt<'S ; rights of way of all kinds ; busness 
use, such as liotels, boat-houses, etc., timber sales, mineral leases of all kinds, water 
uses, and, in fact, every possible utilization of the lands and resources of the stat« 
forests Avliich is not harmful to the purpo.ses for which they were estoblishe<l. 

Payment for the state forests has Ix^en made thus far Ijy appropriations, the first 
purchase being seven thousand eight hundred and eighvy-four acres in 1898; the 
largest- purchase in one year was one hundred and seventy-one thousand tlirce hun- 
dred sixty-four acres in 1902 ; the smallest pui-chase five thousand and fourteen acres 
in 1916 The average number of acres purchased per year over a period that we may 
call twent.v years lias been fifty-five thousand acres annually. 

The examination of titles has been carried on in this state in a way that sometimes 
caused the Forest Commission, I can say, to stop and think, and it is stopping aBd 
thinking now about it. I sometimes shudder at the responsibility for whoever is 
the head of the acquisition bureau, if he had to determine these titles himself, and 
1 would shudder more for the Attorney General's oflice or the Department of Internal 
Affairs if they had to examine them. On the other hand, I suppose that we should 
not be afraid to depend upon administrative officials to do their duty and to attend 
to it and do it just as well as an out side agency. 

One outside company known as the Potter Title and Trust Company of Pittsburgh 
has examined and passed upon the titles to the Pennsylvania state forest land, wit- 
out insuring them. It has simply given a certificate for each case directly after it 
has examined the title and has cleared up everything that it deems necessary to 
liave cleared. It certifies that the title is good in the opinion of that company; and 
there has been so little loss of land, and so little trouble with regard to the title, that 
it has practictUly exemplified the practice used. Tlie system of bookkeeping up to 
this year has not been possible for us at a prohibitive cost of time and expense, to 
determine exactly the question that the state forest commission asked me right away, 
how much is it costing ; but Ave do know now how much it is costing, and we can draw 
conclusions from that. 

The (inly other thing tliat I will speak of is the taxes. Tliis state has assumed the 
attitude that if it takes away from taxation as much land as you see here in green 
(indicating), and ultimately nearly six times as much, it is not fair to the county 
and the township, to the roads and schools, to the poor and those who have charge of 



55 

the roads imd tlie schools jiiui the poor, to take iiway ti(»iii ihciu the ojii)oitiuiity of 
taxing the land and not do something in lieu thereof. Hence they have adopted the 
law that for ev ry aero of land set aside as state for> st land, the state shall pay two 
cents per acre for roads, two cents for schools, and a cent for gcniTal county pnrpo.'ses. 
At this time what they get is certainly equal to what they would get lor taxes; but 
much of the forest lands of this state, ant^ perhaps of other states, is taxed, and 
jx'rhaps properly so below its actual vi\lue. whereas umlci' the law of the state it is 
supposed to be taxed at its actual value. 

.lust one last word, in ])assiiig. and because it was brotight out by somebody here, 
and perhaps would be a matter of importance, and that is the question of what this 
state does in regard to exempting forest land from taxation to try to encourage the 
growing of forest crops. First of all, the practical thing wi do. and then the impor- 
tant task of drawing a conclusion from the practice heri; and probably in some other 
states. Practically we have passed what is known as the auxiliary forest reserve 
law, whereby anybody who has foi-est land may get his land identified by tlie depart- 
ment of forestry as an auxiliary foi-est reserve. There are certain rules in regai'd 
to the care and management of that land which are promulgated by thj' department 
of forestry. Tliei'e is supposed to be an in.«pection of this land from time to t-me to 
see that the owners live up to these rules. Under this law they can not be taxed 
more than the bare land value and not more than one dollar per acre. When they 
are ready to harvest their crop they must announce that fact and they must pay ten 
per cent of the stumpage value determined ahead of time, and may be required to 
give bond for the payment of this ten per cent. That law was passed in 1913. I 
think there were only eight thousand acres out of the (wtnty-four million acres of 
this state that have been put in the auxiliary forest reserve. Even this small area 
has never been inspected, but one of these days it will be insix'cted to see what is 
happening to the eight thousand acres or so. I hate to take issue with fi-iends like 
Mr. Wirt, eagle-eyed and eagle-brained, but after all the facts are substantially so. 
I may be a little bit wrong in some of these things. I did )iot prepare for tliis par- 
ticular point, and even though it is eighteen thousand instead of eight thousand acres 
it makes no difference. The principle of invoking the "coax method" of getting people 
to produce timber seems to break down. I do not know whethor that is so, lut for 
some time I havr' been confident it is. 

This state also had a l.nw for planting trees along highways which was taken 
some small advantage; of, but I doubt very much whether it was a succcess. 
What I am advancing, howe\-er, is rather an expression of opinion. That 
the "coax method" of getting private individuals to grow their trees does not work. 
There may be some other way of coaxing that will work. I b^'licve that we ha\e got 
to have a "prod method". But you are never going to use the prod method on the 
man who is handling his own imvate land until it becomes vitally necessary to the 
public need, but that is the very thing which is coming, as Colonel Greely and Mr. 
Pinchot told you today. The nation or the state, or both, certainly are not going 
to let this land become desolated, devastated and unproductive when we know that 
time is coming. If it does, we will bo in the same position as China and other states 
that have done the same thing. 

Dr. ROTHHOCK. In regard to the tax law, 1 do not think it was ever very 
cordially reiceived. 

Mr. WOODRUFF. The auxiliary forest reserve law? 

Dr. ROTHROCK. The auxiliary, yes, by the forestry administration. My 
colleague and I on this commission were very much interested, although for several 



56 

years we had been cxt'rci.siiijj our wils in sec if we could not l>riiif; about sucli a 
condition of affairs as was contemplated (bore; but it was very coldly received, 1 
think, by the past forestry administration. There never was very much public iu- 
tercst shown in regard to it. It should have been pushed a little into the public 
notice. 

The CHAIRMAN. What might have be^ii tlie l)earing upon that thing? 

Mr. WOODRUFF. I do 7iot think at tliat time it was contemplated at all by tlie 
parties that were interested. It just seemed to be a case of indifference. I think 
tliat because the question never was raised in tlie minds of these prospective appli- 
cants for those laiuls as to what the fire-menuee w;!s. It just seemed to fall flat. 

The CHAIRMAN. It did not appeal. 

Mr. WOODRl'l'^F. It did not appeal. However, I may add something along 
that line by saying that ninety-five per cent of the timber owners do not know that 
there is such a law. There were some applications made that I know of jthat I 
never succ(>oded in luniiig action taken niion, and that leads me to think that i>rob 
ably tlie partial exphi nation of the fnilure was the indilfei-ence of the i)ast adminis- 
tration to look after that particular asneet of forestry. 



Mr. HARRINGTON. I would just like to ask a ([ustion with regard to the pay- 
ment of the taxes on tlie lands that were taken o\er by the state. I was wondering 
whether that question was ever considered by the supreme court of this state, and as 
to whether or not these payments were made from direct approitriations, or whether 
they are paid out of the receipts that the department takes in, or just what (he 
method was. 

Mr. WOODRUFF. It would bo interesting in the line of what we are talkiim 
about. They are paid out of a direct appropriation. There is an appropria'.ion for 
that pur]iose. The receipts of the state forestry department in Pennsylvania from 
any souiife whatever, are paid into the school fund of tlie state, and none of the net 
receipts of the state forests are retained. But it would also be interesting probably 
to the outside state foresters, Mr. Pinchot. Because the proceeds have to be paid 
into the school fund, the department of forestry has no good out of its Ciiirnings of 
any kind. Dr. Rothrock, considered away back, that it was net proccMls that were 
meant by tae law and iiot gross proceeds, and tJiis summer we put up to the 
Attoniey General the question of whether the law meant net proceeds and whether, 
when in order to make net proceeds from some particular kind of a* tivity, opera- 
tion or utilization, we might actually use t'lie mone^- we receive, to [iiit in our own 
portable saw-mills, cut blighted chestnut trees, in short whether or not we might 
pay all theg.i expenses out of the gross receipts, and then identify and turn over 
tJie remaining net proceeds to the school fund. The Attorney General found that 
there had been a decision practically to the sam,o effect a great many years ago, 
and confirmed it to our great advantage not only in handling the questions like 
the" blighted chestnut but also to the school fund itself, because wo could not have 
induced an outsider to come in and jiay stumpage to take out these sv\attered chest- 
nut trees. 

Di*. ROTHRQOK. I haiipe.ned to be right on tlie inside of that chapter of the 
school code. It was drawn up by Dr. George M. Philips, who was a townsman of 
mine, and in drawing up that particular portion of the school code he wanted to 
know bow the forestry dejiartment would look ni)on it. The original draft was that 



57 

tlie imx-eeds. simply tlit^ [irocccds, meaning the gi'oss proctcds of the sale of timber 
and all that, should go to the public school system. 1 linsistcd that that was unfair 
and that it shruld be made net proceeds, and thiit was the statement 1 believe in the 
law. It was not a question of whether the net proceeds or the gross proceeds was tlie 
lule. but it was in tlie construct ioir of that rule that the net pr(K-eeds were distinctly 
•specified in the agreement that I had with Dr. Philips. And here was anotlier thing. 
We wanted giowing timber exempted fro..i taxation. This tax law grew out of the 
clause in our state constitution, 1 believe, which says that all taxes upon property of 
a given class sliall be esenly laid, that in other words there shall be no exemption 
from taxation in a taxed class. We tried to have this phrase alone, as the gentleman 
from Alabama has suggested, omitted. We wanted some system by which taxation 
cculd simply be evaded, but theie was that constitutional clause which confronted 
every governor from the time of Governor Beaver down, until the time that this law 
wa.s finally passed. We had wrestled with them in the courts, so that we oould by 
some means (>x<'mpt the state lands, or the lands that we wanted for forestry pur- 
poses from taxation, but it was not possible and finally we resorted to this auxiliary 
system, wliich originated with Mr. Elliott. 

]\Ir. BAZELEY. The way in whrch we take timbered lands which are to 
be cut, we take the title of the land and pay over the money with the reservations 
in the deed, because in that way wf> feeJ we can hold the lumbennen to the reser- 
vations much better, because if they don't observe the reservations we take back the 
land, and they lose. 

Mr. HARRIN(;T0N. 1 still want to know if this matter has ever been put 
up to the supreme court of tlie state. It has been in our state. 

Mr. WOODRUFF. This law was taken as a matter of course, and nolwdy 
over raised any objection to it in the way of a quo warranto proceeding. 

Mr. HARRINGTON. It may be interesting to know what happened in our 
state. We were up against the same situation. About five years ago sometliing 
in th(! neighborhood of two hundred thousand acres was purchased in the northern 
part of the state, bringing the statf^'s holdings to three hundred thousand acres 
in four counties. In some of the towns this state land, which was exempt from 
taxation, rose as high as seventy to eighty per cent of the acreage. Now, the 
government, the local government, could not stand the expense of road construction, 
schools, and so forth, and later on there was a vigorous and in most cases justified 
opposition to the development of the general forest plan tliat was being carried out. 
The whole opposition I think to the development in Wisconsin of a forestry plan 
came about through this tax question. The matter was brought to the attention 
of the supreme court. A bill was introduced in the legislature to pay iu lieu of 
taxes five cents an acre, just like you ha^-e here and just like they have in Michigan, 
and tlie court held tliat it was unconstitutional, and that is the status of tlie 
situation at the present time. The result is that wherever you go or any meetings 
you attend, or in talking with citizens of northern Wisconsin where these state 
lands still exist, this tax question is always referred to riid gi'ncrally not in a 
pleasant manner. The taxpayers in that part of. the state in my estimation have 
a just and good complaint. A good many of the towns have as high as seventy or 
eighty per cent of the land exempt from taxation. It is dangerous, and it seems to 
me that it is one of tlie most vital things in the whole policy of the general ac- 
quisit'on of the state forest lands to proA'ide some way whereby thcsf towns can be 
reimbursed for these state properties within their limits. 



oS 

I»r. ROTHRUCK. The state is obliged by the law t<> pa.x this fiv»' cents i>ir 
acre. 

Mr. "IIARRINCJTON. We have a provision in our law whereby we cm exempt 
np to forty acres for forest plantations, but nobody has ever taken advantage of it. 

Mr. liAZELEY. It may be interesting to know the way it is in Massachusetts. 
All the .state lands in Massachusetts are assessed by the state tax commissioner 
every five years, and the tax on that is paid directly to tin- towns in which the 
state land lies, dii-ectly to the treasurer of the municipality. 

Dr. ROTHROCK. There is a very inteit sting fact tliat I think ought to be 
stated here. We have a list of tlie first land that was purchased in the state of 
Pennsylvania under what were known as the tax sales. At one time there were 
two million acres in the state of Pennsylvania upon which the taxes were not paid, 
A good deal of criticism was made. Upon that law the state proposed to go in and 
purchase the land, and then the cry was raised, and the people complained that that 
was taking away their lands from them, and that we were depriving them of their 
rights, and all that ; but the result of the operation of tliat tax law was that you 
can hardly buy an acre of land now at a tax sale. Taxes are paid all over the state 
and promptly paid. We can not buy land at tax sales. I remember one particular 
tax sale with a thousand acres at four cents an acre, land the state would not sell 
today for ten dollars an acre. 

There was another interesting thing that came up when the state bought these 
lands, and they allowed the counties their four cents an acre, subsequently an 
additional cent an acre, making it five cents an acre. The county trea-surer finds 
himself in better condition than he had cAcr been befoi'c the state took possession 
of the land. I do not believe there is a county in the state today that would be 
willing to go back to the old system. I think where the state has taken a foothold 
in thi.s land in any county the people are satisfied that it has bifn so. With 
private cooperation of their citizens we have given them better protection against 
fcrest fires and a lot of things in which their condition has b.M'n improved, and 
every county of the state I say where the state has advjuiced into it is satisfied 
with the ownership by the state. 

Mr. WLXJDRl^FF. May I add one thing? The purchase of the land is jutified 
from a business standpoint in this state, because a very ceuservative appraisal of 
those lands bought in Dr. Rothrock's administration, we will say, for which about 
ten or twelve years is he average life of the purchase, and that cost, as you can see, 
only about two million three hundred thousand dollars, and the administration has 
only run that up to about five million odd dollars, and a very conservative appraisal 
of those lands today is ten million dollars from a commercial standpoint, which 
is a comforting thought outside of tlie benefit to the public. 

Mr. CIIAl'IX JONES. I just would like to inquire of Judge Woodruff how that 
five cents an acre tax compares with what the tax would bo if the land were still 
in private hands. 

Afr. WOODRUFF. The county tirasuriis are better off than under the old" 
plan of an assessment which was always very low. 

Mr. JONES. How is tliat fi\e cents arri\ed at? 

Ml-. WOODRUFl". The DepartJiient of Forestry certifies to the trea.surer for 



59 

each county how mucli state forest huid thore is in that county, and maliys a re- 
(inisition on tho treasurer of tlie state and a check is drawn by the state treasurer 
of the state to the county treasurer, I think. 

Mr. JONES. How did' you deede on that five-cent figure? 

Dr. ROTHROCK. It just sf \v, that is all. First of all, there was thrc cents 
j4iven. as I remember it. Then they came out specifically for two cents for schools, 
and later on they came out for two cents for roads, not on any particular basis 
at all, and then last session they came out for one cent additional, wliich was ad- 
vocated by our friend, Mr. Pinchot, particularly, and they passed one cent for 
general purposes ; so it is entirely arbitrary. 

Mr. .JONP^S. It is all a matter of law? 

Mr. WOODRUFF. Tlie determination of values by the regular method, and 
I think it would give us a more fair assessment generally. 

1 >r. ROTHROCK. Let me give you two concrete illustrations of t^e relative 
merits of allowing two cents for schools. In two of the counties of this state, as 
the state had been acquiring large bodies of land, the school fund in one case and 
the road fund in another case was so well looked after that they did not need 
the state's help, and the collectors appropriated tlie money for their own use and 
they were subsequently surcharged for it. 

Tile CILVIRMAN. (ientltinc n, it is .six o'clock. Do y< u wish to continue this 
discu.ssion, or shall we call it off until eight o'clock toniglit? At eight o'clock there 
will be a baked-apple party. I would like to remind you also that at nine o'clock 
tomorrow miH-ning, not t;.'n o'clock, we will convene hire in this room and contimu' 
this wonderfully interesting discussion of these problems. 

At six o'clock P. M. the conference adiourned until Tliursday, December Dtli, at 
nine o'clock. 



Senate Chamber, 

IIarrisb\irg, Pa., Thursday morning, 

December 9, 1920. 



GOVERNOR OLCOTT presiding 



The CHAIRMAN. The conference will please conn'' to order. If sinc^ yesterday 
there have been any acquisitions to our ranks in tlu^ way of state foresters or 
representatives of state forestry departments, I wish they would make tliemselvcs 
known to the secretary and hand their names to him so that we may make a full 
and complete record. 

Are there any suggestions from anyone as to the program otiier than to proceed 
along the scheduled line? If not, Ave will take up "State-widi' Forest Protection 
in New Jersey," by Mr. Alfred Gaskill. 



60 

Mr. ALFllEI) (iASKlLL,, State Fonstcr, New Jersey. 1 taki' it for gi anted 
that state-wide forest protection is in tlie iniiid of over.v forest oftieial. That is 
the ideal toward which we must work ; if anything less tlian its actual accomplish- 
inetit is considered it can be temporary only, and because circumstances or conditions 
re(inire us to adjust our efforts to those conditions. I cannot see, in other words, 
how any state forester, or any official organization, can undertake to maintain a 
ftre-protective or?:anization which doe.'* uot cover the whole exposure in tiie dcy;ree 
that is required. The next ideal, as I see it, is that a protective service, shall ajj- 
proacli as closely as may be th,e paid fire department tliat is established, and main- 
tained as of necessity, in every large city. We know well enough that we can not 
liave paid fire departments in our forested areas, it costs too much. Perhaips thpy a: e 
not necessary, certainly not in the degree of refinement tlmt they are »;ressary 
where the property to be protected is worth so much, but surely we must get tlie 
first essentials of such an organization. That is adequate control in important 
sections, and some sort ©f service throughout the whole area. 

Now, a good many states, Jersey amongst them, Lave tried to get ah)ng with a 
good bit less than what tliey have indicated as the ideal. We have tris'd ex officio 
wardens, 'we have tried volunteers, we have tried, in short, to get sometliing for 
notliing by one means or anotlior, and usually we have gotten nothing for something. 
It has not amounted to anything at all so far as efficiency goes. 

I shall speak with a goed deal of diffidence about what Jersey lias done, for two 
reasons. First, because our accomplishment is so far short of our aims ; and next, 
because \\hat we lia\e done, and what we liave not done, may mean absolutely 
nothing to those of you who have different conditions to d(^al with. You can not set 
up a standard, for ai\y state, or any section, that is going to Ix' profitable to any 
other state, or any otlier section, unless you find identical conditions there. The 
pi'Ogram must be fitted to the exposui-e exactly as you find it, and by exposure I 
nothing by one ui aiis or another, and usually we have gotten nothing for something. 
It lias not amount! (i to anything at all so far as efficiencj^ goes. 

Fifteen years ago .jersey enacted a law intended to bring about a better order of 
things in a state wliieh perhaps repre.sentcd more truly than any other tlie extreme 
of forest devastation. It is true enfiugh that Jersey is small in area. It is likewise 
true that she is so situated tliat every one of her resources and interests is mag- 
nified in several ways, so that they become pretty important. Our fores-t exposure 
may be surprising to some of you, but it includes forty-six ix-r cent of our ai"ea, 
and considerably more than half of it is pine forest ; couple with that, if you 
please, the greatest concentrated population in the whole country on one side of 
us, and the third greatest on the other side of us, and our little state may be 
considered, I sometimes say, as a thoroughfare rather than a comnumity. The whole 
country passes through Jersey in its communications from the west and south with 
the great center in New York, and to and from our seashore resorts. We lunc more 
miles of railroad to the square mile of territory than any state in the Union, 
one mile of railroad to three square miles. Even Pennsylvania is better off in tliis 
respect. We have twenty-fi\e thousand miles of highway, and ninety per cent of 
these highways are used by automobiles. The state issues approximately one 
hundred thousand hunting licenses. The gunners literally pour from the cities to 
the country communities to enjoy a day's sport at somebody else's expense. Now, 
I do not quarrel with liunting on legitimate hunting gnmnd, but I do contend that 
in organized communities and in densely populated sections, such as are found in 
that little state across the river, there is no room for that sort of thing. Som(Mliing 
must give way in the interest of what we foresters believe is development and 



61 

progress. Then there ;ire incoming settlers cleaning up homes, aiul many wanderers 
ill the wo< (Is — and most of tliom seem to be cigarette smokers. We tliiis luive a 
\( ry complex problem to deal with — the railroads, hunters, automobilists, pleasure- 
seekers, all sorts of people using the wooded areas, because they are easily ac- 
cessible, and because, in spite of jill you can say about it, the woods of New Jersey 
are pretty attractive. The south Jersey pine-lands are full of flowers In the spring, 
and full of color in the fall, and the mountains in the north have their attractions. 

Now, that is al)<)ut what we have to deiil with — forest cut over not once but 
two, three or four times ; forests so burned that portions of them will not come 
back in a natural way, although it is surprising that the effect of the fires is so 
slight. There really are mighty few areas where the natural forest is not simply 
pushing for a chance to come back. That is true of the pines as well as of the 
hardwoods. We started out with the idea, somewhat different from that of other 
states, that fire-prevenion and not fire-suppression was the goal. I do not mean 
that we must not control the fires that start. It is obvious that we must. But 
Avhatever organization is perfected, it should have in mind first of all the prevention 
of fires. We gave over at once the thought of using volunteers. You do not get 
anywhere with them, and we settled ui)on the principle that any man who was 
engaged in combating fire in any way deserves pay. We could not afford to pay 
a great deal, but exactly as the small town or borough finds that it can support 
a volunteer fire organization by pro\iding a good equipment and a supper now 
and then, tlirongh which the interest of the men is kept alive, so it seemed to us 
advisable to assure pay to every man engaged in the forest fire-senice. 

The organization that in the course of the years has been created now numbers 
al)Out thne hundred and seventy-five wardens in one hundred and sixty-five town- 
ships. It is so arranged that few of these men have more than five thousand aoi'es 
to look after. Three-fourths of them have telephones in their houses. These men 
are under the direction and control of a state firewarden who has four assistants 
called division firewardens. They keep in touch with all parts of the organization, 
investigate fires, check up reports, see to getting the right men appointe<l, and that 
they are on the work and keep it in hand. It is a rather inadequate, but still 
fairly efficient, state control. Under the law a township warden is given the mag- 
iiificent sum of twi'nty dollars a year, as a retainer and as compensation for issuing 
Iiormits, posting notices, making reports; but it serves to enlist him actively in 
the service. A district warden, where a township is too large for one man, gets 
ten dollars a year. When we first made this provision T expected that we should 
have to increase the rate after a while, that the men would not be satisfied for long. 
As a fact, tliey are satisfied and there lias been no demand for more ; the little 
sum of twenty dollars, or ten dollars, comes to most of these men as easy money. 
In addition to this allowance, the law provides that any warden who goes to a fire 
shall get at least two dollars, no matter how short a time he is there. Until last 
year he served up to five hours ; the law^ now reads that a warden going to a fire 
shall have two dollars for any service lasting two hours or less, and any man that 
he calls out to help him shall have one dollar for any service of two hours or less. 
The idea is to get there quickly and put the fire out, to make slight fires. If the 
men are required to work longer than two hours the warden is paid at the rate of 
fifty cents per hour and helpers at the rate of forty cents per hour. This all means 
that the interest of every warden, three hundi-ed and seventy-five men, located all 
o\-er tiie state, is enlisted and maintained, and that they are quick because they 
get tlieir pay if they do not have to do much. If a man is located whei-e fires are 
plenty, and he is frequently called out, he will adjust his work to tliat condition 
during the forest-fire season, and be ready for fires, the pay compensates him for 
the time that is expended. The plan seems to work well, and, as I said, there has 



62 

been no demaud yet for au increase of the retainer. We oaLl it a retainer, rather 
than a salary, because it is so insignificant. 

The wardens are appointed for three years, and are township, not state officials. 
The idea is that the fire-service should enlist as large a part of the population 
scattered through these districts as can be done. We cannot have a big state force, 
but we can maintain a considerable local force supported by local interest and local 
pride. The township committees, at the direction of the department, make the 
appointments. The department can say if the townships shall have wardens, but 
th(! township conunittees actually apjioiut the meji. and if the state firewarden does 
not like the appointees he can dismiss them. Tliat \irtuaily i)Uts the power in the 
hands of the state authorities while satisfying the pride and interest of the local 
people, and it s(H>ins to work pretty well. 

The organization of what \m call our ground-service, that is, this very considerable 
body of local wardens, was the first thought and care, and it is still our principal 
thought and care for the reason, as I have stated, that fire-prevention, rather than 
fire-control, is at the bottom of our effort. Having gotten this organization fairly 
well going, we have" begun to esta})lish watch-towers and to maintain patrols. No 
part of the service has gone nearly as far as we hope to develop it. As in every 
state, tlie money docs not come fast enough ; but Avorking in tliis way I think I 
may venture to emphasize the point that it does not do a great deal of good to 
set patrols or to establish watchers before there is somebody at the end of the 
telephone-line to respond to a call and take care of the fire after it has been found. 

'I 

As the work developed, we have experienced what practicidly every other state 
has experienced, an inci'ease apixircntly in the number of fires. Let none be dis- 
couraged if he finds upon the extension of his forest-fire service that the number of 
fires grows and grows. It will grow, it is bound to grow, until the service is 
fully establislu'd. Such a record <>loes not mean th.'it your fires are increasing, it 
only means that you are beginning to get a complete knowledge of them. Years ago 
some efforts were made to count tJie fires in New Jersey. The record shows sixty 
or seventy or eighty fires a year and the average area burned was upwards of 
1000 acres. Only the big fires were noticed. We now record between six and 
eight hundred fires every year, on only two million acres of woodland. Our con- 
solation is that the proportion of serious fires is decreasing. Last year 27 per cent 
of all the fires were stopped before they burned two acres, 57- per cent burned 
less than 10 acres, and only 11 per ctmt covered over 100 acres. We believe that 
a service which gets men at every fire quickly and holds it to .small proportions 
is as m.uch as can be hoped for yet. I do not like it that the number is maintained 
as it is, the fires ought to be fewer; but if we keep the size down, and the size is 
continually going down, the loss, however you measure it, is loss and less year by 
year. 

It used to be said that our fires burned for weeks without attention. I guess 
that is pretty nearly true, but the average total area covered by the fires in the 
state for the last ten years has been about seventy thousand acres a year, or three 
and one-half per cent of the total woodland. In one view that is not very bad 
because the same ground often is burned repeatodlj', in another view it is bad 
because if we burn three and one-half per c(>nt of our woodland e\ery year wc 
have no assurance that any part of that woodland is going to (>scape burning 
within a rotation. ITntil we get the hazard down to where we can a.«sure the 
maturity of the trees that we are trying to protect tlie effort is only p.utly suc- 
cessful. And still I do not count the situation discouraging, although it may sound 
so. We must be p.-.tieiit, j)erhaps safeguard one area at a time, and by degrees reduce 



G3 

iJie three and ono-lialf porccnt of our woodland, or tlie woodland of any state, that 
may be itubject to burning until every body of forest shall have immunity until tlie 
.Nfuini;; trees can br matured. 

Tlie (•< st of the ser\iee, as I liaxc outlined it, has j;i-own fi-om fi\e thousand 
dollars a year, which was the first appropriation I think, not mo:o than that any- 
how, to about forty-four thousand dollars. Of that the townships pay one-half 
the expenses of the local firewardens, that is half of their ret.'iiners, and half of 
the actual cost of helping in suppressing fires, the state pays tJie other half and all 
the costs of supervision, clerks, printing, etc. The total is equivalent to two and 
one-half centsi an acre ;i year on the woodland that we are covering. It is a 
pretty high rate ; if it were insurance we could say it was a low rate Counting 
Ihe tiling as it is. it probably is not 'enough. I know it is not enough to brin'g 
us to tlie point of fireproofing the forests, which is what we aim at. 

Now, for all this, what is the accomplishment? Mr. Pinchot said yesterday 
that he felt a very large proportion of the fires in Pennsylvania were set inten- 
tionally, if not deliberately incendiary. In our experience that is almost unknown. 
Most states charge the majority of the fires to railroads. When we began we 
regarded between fifty and sixty per cent as attributable to railroads. Last year, 
and every fire of that kind is recorded, only thirty-five per cent of all our fin's 
started from the railroads. Brush-burners, smokers and those who traverse the 
woods are responsible for the most of the fires started in our territory. To the 
improvement of the condition with respect to the railroads we have, in very larg<! 
measure, the railroads themselves to thank. 

Our cooperation with the railroads in the matter of fire-lines and cleaning up 
the right-of way has been referred to. We established that principle by law in 
1909, and every railroad in the state but one fell in with us to make fire-lines by 
clearing strips one hundred feet wide on each side of the ti'acks and outside those 
making belts ten feet Avide stripped bare to the soil. One of the roads, through 
a property-owner, fought the law and the courts declared it unconstitutional. Now, 
here comes the pretty part of it. Pending the controversy some tlirce hundi-ed 
miles of fire lines of tlie stanjdai-d type were built by the railroads. Since the law 
was throAvn out by the court not only has every mile of that three hundred 
been maintained voluntarily by the railroads, but they have added fifty per cent 
to it, and are still going. Every now and then one of the railroad men comes in and 
says "we can not get across that man's land down tliere, he won't let us clean 
up, could you help us?" Fortunately we have another law by which anyone wlio 
maintains a nuisance of that sort can be required either to clean up or to put 
on a patrol at his own expense. 

So much for the railroads and tiieir fire-lines. The thing we are pjoudest of 
in this connection is our success in fixing the i*esponsibility for our forests fires. 
It is not that the penalties imposed are specially important, but that the convic- 
tions show where tlie danger lies and help to prevent other possible violations. 
Last yeail responsibility for sixty-two per cent of all the fires that occurred in 
our state was fixed upon some person or agency. The penalties are made to fit 
the crime in each case. The railroads are never charged more than the actual cost of 
controlling a fire, because it is recognized tliat tlieir acts are involuntary. If an 
offense is malicious, or due to extreme carelessness, the offender pays a heavy penal- 
ty. Tlic law allows up to four hundred dollars. If a violation is due to ignorance or if 
some poor devil in the woods has hard luck whilo trying to clean up a little place 
to live on the penalty may be purely nominal. 



(i4 

In another way we ure getting ahead. Whereas in the old days our fires burned 
for days and weeks, thej' now are literally matters of hours, with a very few 
(Exceptions. Onee in a while one gets away, and in some s<'ftions of the siate ii 
is still possible for a fire to burn for hours without being known, l)nt that is get- 
ting rarer and rarer. I tliink we have the absolute and complete support of the 
public. There was the usual opposition and criticism when we begun, but that 
seems to have vanished entirely. The townships do not object to paying their share 
of the cost. Tlioy urged us, as a matter of fact, to increase the pay of the fire-fight- 
ers last winter and are ready to hold up their end. It seems to be pretty generally 
accepted that something of material value to all interests will come out of the effort. 
I hope that that expectation may be realized. 

There is one thing in this connection about .which 1 must express envy of Peiinsyl- 
\ania and New York and a few other states, concerning the possibilities perhap.-! 
more than the actualities of fire-control and that is your state police. It surely is 
the only practicable dependence in soirfrv of the far westera sections, a.si it is of the 
greatest value where there is a constant menace from all sorts of sources — streams 
of pcoplr', hunters, automobilists, flower gatlierers or what you will. We have so- 
many tliat the only sure way to control them successfully is to have somebody 
continually on their trails. There resides I think in a state police organization very 
great possibilities in this direction. Unfortunately we have not yet got it, but 
my hope is that we shall Jiave one before long. It can do much to lesson the hazard 
by covering tlic frequented forests during the danger seasons. What may be expected 
h- indicated by an experience several years ago. There happened to be a little money 
available at the opening of the deer-hunting season. As I have told you, the hunters 
pour out of the cities during tlie few days when hunting is lawful. We served notice 
that hunters building fires illegally would be arrested, but they did not believe there 
v.- as anything in tliat. Just four patrolmen went around tlie deer grounds after dark, 
and in two nights they rounded up one hundred and thirty-six deer parties building 
fires in violation of the law. The violators were not penalized very much, most of 
fliem paid an insignificant fine, but we said, "you are watched". Next year a 
similar patrol found not a single fire illegally set, but practically every deer hunter 
went hunting in an automobile and with an oil stove. Tlmt is sport, if you please! 

Gentlemen, I have tried to outline what little .Jersey has done in the way of safe- 
guarding two million acres or forest which has nothing important in the way of 
jnatured timber, but which has great potentialities, because of its location and the 
productive cpiality ol' the land. On this account we are convinced that, mainly 
througth fii-e-protection . there can be built np a forest which wall have great value 
to those who com*; after us. (Applause.) 

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Gaskill will be succeeded on tlie same subject by Mr. 
M. C. Hutchins, of Massachusetts. 

Mr. M. C. HUTCHINS, Massachusetts. I have been asked to give an outline of 
our state-wide forest fire protection system in Massachusetts. I ha\e listened 
with a great deal of interest to the remarks just made by State Forester Gaskill 
of New Jersey, and if I were to touch on the fire menace or fire conditions in 
Massachusetts, I would simply need to repeat what Mr. (Jaskill \ias told us, as con- 
ditions in Massachusetts and New Jersey are somewhai similar. 

The present system was started in the fall of 1011, hg'slation being enacted that 
year cslling for state-wide fire protection. In fact nine yiars ago at this time we 



05 

were constructing our tirst obscrviition station at the summit of Grace Mountain 
in the town of Warwick, and within five miles of New Hampshire line. The 
state was divided into five districts, each comprising around seventy towns, each dis- 
ti-ict being under the superv'sion of a district forest warden, who was provided with 
au automobile and necessary equipment for handling ami small fire. It is their duay 
liere, that in selection of our distnct forest wardens, we have not adhered to 
fires, and to urge upon them the neci.'ssity of providing tliemselves with necessary 
forest fire fighting equipment. 

We have thirty-seven observation stations, thirty-two of which are steel towers 
from thirty-eight to eighty-three feet higli, according to tlie location, and topogi-a- 
phy of the country. Twenty-six of these towers ar(> equipped Avith fire escape 
•staii-s, and six with ladders. The total cost, including the erection, is $33,000, 
and the towns receiving the benefit from these towers have contributed $14,000 of 
this amount. All stations arc equipped with field glasses, sliding map tables, and 
topographical maps, which give the location and telephone call of over eighteen hun- 
dred forest wardens and deputies throughout the state. The construction work of 
towers has been done entirely by our district men and observers. I might say right 
here, that in the selection of our district forest wardens, we liave not adhered to 
the policy adopted by many of the states in selecting foresters for this ptsition, and 
the reason for this is that the fire menace in our state is so serious that it needs 
a mtm specially trained in the handling of fires to make a success of it. We there- 
fore selected some of the best fire department chiefs, together with experienced 
telephone and map-making men for the positions. This gives us a typo of man 
that with very little training could go ahead, with our entire construction problem, 
so that for the past eight years it has not been necessai-y to engage a single outsidf 
man for this work. 

The matter of having a closed room at the top of the towers is^j very imijortanr, 
and I have found that if we are to expect results from our obsei-vers we must give 
them a protected room to work in. The equipping of our towei's with stairsi has 
made it possible for more that thirty thousand people to visit them annually, coming 
from every state in the Union and' from many foreign counties. For instance, this 
year at our Mount iRverett Station, which is. located in tlie most desolate part of 
the state, being in the southwest corner, we have had more than thirteen hundrf^d 
visitors from twenty-two states and 'five foreign ccuutries. 

All our towers have a complete set of the bulletins published by the department, 
and anyone interested may procure similar copies by leaving their address with the 
observc'r. Most of our observers have been with us many yeai's, and make it a point 
to give the visitors a good talk on fire prevention. The matter of selecting observer.? 
is a very important one with- us. We prefer a local, middle-aged man, who has 
either lived in the locality a number of years, or who has been a frequent hunter or 
trapper in that vicinity, so tliat the information he has gathered in this icapacity, 
together with our triangulation system in the station, make it possible for him to 
locate fires very accurately and quickly. The matter of accuracy is very important, 
as we have three hundred and fifty-three towns and cities within so small aiii area, 
and an observer must be so familiar with town lines that he Avill know just wliat 
towai the fire is in. 

The cost of a fifty foot tower made of 4 x 4 angle iron, with stairs and an eight 
foot room at the top, all complete and ready for use is about $1,200, and a seventy- 
five foot tower with 5x5 angle iron all complete is ^ibout $1,000. This does not 
include the cost of erection, which, as I have said before, is doiu> entirely by our 
5 



m 

salaried district men and observers. We have had eonsiih'rabh' exi> rieiicr- with the 
dieap wind-mill tower, but they have not proved satisfactory — in fact they are not 
heavy enough to carry stairs and the dosed in mom at thic top. The (xpense of erect- 
ing is nearly as much as one of the heavier towers, so that practVally all the extra 
expense is the initial cost in the pni'chasinf>i of a Ix'ttcr j;r;!ilc tower. 

(Jur fire fijihtinj;; (■< ips are j;i'nerally organized into crews of ei^lil. I'nder the 
old system, whenever a crew arrived at a fire it was natural for eacli man to select 
an extinguisher and immediately turn it over; consetiuently, before tliree hundred 
feet of fire line had been extinguished, those extinguishers were empty, and nothing 
had been accomplished. We say to them now, let one man discharge the extinguish- 
ers, three men keeping him supplied with full ones, and the balance of the crew 
follow along behind with wire brooms, rakes, shovels, etc., and sw; that any live 
fire is pushed back into tlie burned area and fire line established. One extinguisher 
will last about two minutes and will deaden the fire lino a distance of twof hundred 
feeit in length and thirty feet in depth. This accomplishes the same iTSults as throw- 
ing sand and dirt, only it is done so qjuch quicker and easier, and w^ith 'two or 
three crews working on a fire in this manner, any ordinary fire is under control 
within a very short time. 

We have what is known as the town forest warden system. The selectmen of 
each town are required to appoint a forest warden during the month of January. 
This appointment however, does not become effective until approved by the State 
Forester. This system fs in a measure satisfactory, *\s it places the burden of 
responsibility on the towns, who are liable for all bills for extinguishing fires. It 
is the duty of the town forest warden to divide his town into fire districts^i appoint^- 
ing a deputy who has supervision over his district. The .town forest warden has 
full supervision of the fire work in his town. It is his duty to issue all permits for 
fires in the open air between the first day of! March and the first day of December. 
He has supervision and care of all forest fiix> fighting equipment purchased by the 
town, and he and his deputies have the necessary authority to make arrests of per- 
sons violating the fire laws. 

In 1910 a law was enacted in Massachusetts known as the reimbursement act, 
which really established a workable cooperative plan between the towns and the 
state, which has been of immense value to us in the building of our present system. 
This law requires that the state shall reimburse all towns with a valuation of 
$1,750,000 or less, fifty percent on any forest fire fighting equipment purchased by 
the itown and approved by the State Forester. In no instance docs the State re- 
imbui-se any town more than $250. In other words, 'the town may purchase $500 
"ft ( i-th of forest fire equipment, and the state will pay $250 of it. We have had 
during the past ten years, 182 towns, covering nearly two-thirds of the land area 
of the state, come under the provisions of this act ; 42 of these towns have taken up 
their entire allotment; IS have had their valuations increased, so that while they 
have taken up a portion of their allotment, they will iiot be allowed to take up 
their entire amount. This leaves 127 towns that are still building up their town 
organizations and purchasing small amounts of equipment each year. 

In many of our smaller towns we have g(me .still farther than just the control of 
forest fires, and are organizing fire companies tluit will also han<lle all building fires. 
This, we find appeals to many of the small hamh^ts. and at the same time assures us 
of tlie necessary equipment for handling our forest fires in these towns. 



67 

The stiitf and tawns have expeiided up U> llio lut sriil tiiiu; $47,CHX) fur suoli etiuip- 
ment, the state's share being $23,500. This has made it possible for us to ,have 
over 10,000 pieces of apparatus and tools distributed throughout the poorer and 
thinly populated towns, and where the majority of our forested area lies. This 
equipment is ready for immediate use. 

The equipment that we recommend includes the ordinary three-gallon house ex- 
tinguisher, one-man and two-man pumps, necessary shovels, wire brooms, pails, 
water cans, etc., and also motor apparatus for providing means of getting to the 
fires promptly. 

We ai"e asking for an amendment to this law so that we may reimburse towns 
^50 per year for the replacement of destroyed or worn out equipment. Other laws 
that were on the statute books were, the permit law, locomotive spark arresters, 
and the right-of-way act, aU of which were very essential in the building of our 
present system. 

With the above organization and the observation system, we have been able to 
reduce the fire loss from over $600,000 per year in 1911 to an average of less than 
$100,000. This year our loss will probably be around $60,000, and our number of 
fires will exceed 1,800. 

I want to say just a v.ord about railroad fires. I do not want my friend '•Gas- 
kill to leave the impression here that he has all the locomotives over in jNew Jer- 
sey, as we have 1,500 in operation in Massachusetts every day of the year, thirty 
different lines coming into Massachusetts from outside of the state. A system of 
inspection is carried on by our department and members of the Public Utilities 
Department, which covers all Massachusette locomotives. These inspections are 
made in the early spring and fall before the fire season starts. Our chief trouble 
today is in locomotives coming from outside the state over these various lines whero 
no inspection is made and very little attention is paid to the front ends and ash 
pans. In fact it has been necessary for our Utilities Department to prohibit certain 
locomotives from coming into the state without their approval as to the condition of 
the spark arresters and ash pans. 

The advisibility of closing the hunting season has been mentiono-d, but I want to 
say that we have had our troubles with hunters' fires. In 1914 more tlian four hun- 
dred fires were set tlie first week of hunting, the Gov«rnor tlieoi closed thi^ 
aoiason. This year we had one hundred and sixty-five fires the first three days of 
hunting; the season was then closed for four days until we had heavy rains. 

Mr. LOVEJOY. May I inquire what the cost per acre is for tliis protection, If 
all the kgitimate items are charged inV 

Mr. HUTCHINS. You mean fire-protection. 

Mr. LOVEJOY. Yes, the total cost of protection, per acre on th© acreagp pro- 
tected. 

Mr. HUTCHINS. The forested area in Massachusetts is scattered more or less 
over the entire state, therefore, our state laws require state-wide fire protection. 
The total area of Massacluisetts is a little more than 5,000,000 acres, but we have 



68 

) 

about 3,000,000 acres of forested area or potential forested area. If the cost of 
fire protection were distributed over the entire 5,000,000 acres, it would be about 
1} cents per acre. On the other band, if this cost is charged tuly to tliie a-ctual 
forested area, it would, be about 3 cents per acre. 

Mr. LOVEJOY. With everytliing legitimate charged in, depreciation of property, 
volunteer labor, and so forth? 

Mr. HUTCHINS. No. This estimate does not iiichule depreciation of property. 
It includes our state appropriation, money expended by towns for fighting fires and 
the purcliase of forest fire figliting equipment, and money expended on our state 
reservations for fire protection. 

Mr. LOVEJOY. Does that include the volunteer labor contributed? 

Mr. HUTCHINS. No. 

Mr. PETERS. Is that based on your whole forest area of three million acres? 

Mr, HUTCHINS. No. The 3 cents per acre is based on our actual forested area 
of 3,0()0,0(X) acres. 

Mr. PETERS. It means less than that. 

Mr. HUTCHINS. It means a cent and half an acre on the total acreage ol 
the state in order to cover the forested ax'ea. 

Mr. PETERS. Four cents of the forest-area protected? 

Mr. HUTCHINS. Yes. practically that. 

Mr. PETERS. May I inquire how nearly you have reached what ycu consider 
(he practical ideal of protection? 

Mr. HUTCHINS. We feel that our observation system is nearly complete at 
the present time. It will be necessary to establish two or three more towers in 
order to cut our radius down to not over ten miles in some of our dangerous local- 
ities. When this is done, and onr presejit slash law is enforced throughout the 
entire state, we will liave a^conlpli^h(■d about all tliat is possible under our present 
laws. 

Mr. PINCHOT. What would you figure would be an ideal sum that would give 
you really the sort of protection that you want per acre? 

Mr. HUTCHINS. Pigurinj!: on th'^ actual forested area, I would say that 
between 4 cts. and 5 ots. per acre would give Massachusetts an ideal protectiv(> 
system. 

Jlr. PINCHOT. May I ask you just what you mean by very good protection? 

Mr. HUTCHINS. We have an average of about 2,000 fires per acre. Before 
our present system was installed, the average area burned over per a fire was nearly 
forty acres. The average damage prT five was around .$225.00. Through tlie present 
system, this has been reduced, so that the average area per fire at the present time 



69 

is around thirteen acres and the average damage per a fire is about i^O.iHiO. This 
is about all we can expect from our present organization and tlie appropriauou 
we are receiving today for this work. If this appropriation could be increased to 
between 4 cents and 5 cents per acre of forested area, I think it would allow us to 
perfect our organization so that our average area per fire would be between eight 
and nine acres, and our average damage per fire would be around $20.00 or an 
average loss per year of not more than $50,000. If tlie loss could be reduced 
to the above figure, I would consider that wc had an idcjd systi-m. 

Mr. PINGHOT. That means how much in proportion to the total area? What 
is tlie ratio, so tliat we could apply it to other regions? Is it one hundred and 
fifty thousand against fifty milliotiis, or what sort of a ratio? 

Mr. HUTCHINS. I can tell you that exactly. 

Mr. LOVE JOY. I would like to ask Mr. Peters: Is there any state that has 
a more intensive or a more successful fire-protection system than Massachusets? 

Mr. PETERS. I think that some states have better systems in certain respects. 
None has a lookout system any better than that of Massachusetts. 

Mr. LOVEJOY. Has the reduction of fire losses been more successfully carried 
on in any other state? 

Ml-. PETERS. New York and New Jersey hav« reported the loss of on© dollar 
or less per acre. I do not know of any states that can beat them when you come 
right down to actual dollars-and-cents results. 

Mr. BESLEY. A dollar an acre on how many acres of area? 
Mr. PETERS. On the acrieage burned over, 

Mr. BEfSLEY. I was very much impressed by the exact data with regard to the 
damage per acre of land burned over. I do not think it is any index, or a suit- 
able index at least, of the damage from fire. I can not miderstand exactly from 
Mr. Gaskill's figures whether tlie woodlands in New Jersey were so much less 
valuable than they were in otlier states, or whether they arc estimated on an entire- 
ly different basis. I think in Massachusetts they figure the average loss per acre 
ef forest-land burned over, at four or iixe dollars an acre. 

Mr. HUTCHINS. Around five dollars an acre. 

Mr. BESLEY. I think it really ought to be placed on tlie actual acreage burned 
over. That isi the oanly way you can get at any fair estimate of the results ©f fire- 
protection in this state, and in comparing it v^ath the damage per acre of forest-land. 

Mr HOLMES. I would like to ask Mr. Hutchins whether h*e can not expect 

to decrease the numbei^ of fires in Massachusetts by education and other means. 

Mr. HUTCHINS. We are working along this line at the present time. Just 
how much can be accomplished, is hard to say. WitJi our immense population, it 
is impossible to reach more than a small percentage of them ; then iyou take our 
Immense railroad system, our 250,000 automobiles and trucks, 150,000 hunters, «nd 



70 

our extremely large foreign population, and the fact that ninety five percent of our 
fires today are caused by carelessness, the future for reducing the number of firea 
does not Beem very bright. 

Mr. SECREST. On what basis is that estimate made? 

Mr. HUTCIIINS. This estimate is taken from our reports of the actual damage, 
received from our fire wiirdeiis. There is some question about it being very accurate, 
owing to many of ciir fsrest wiirdeiis not appraising brush land as being of any 
value. 

Mr. PETERS. This question of assessing fire-damage is one that I would like 
to see the states take up a systematic manner. The figures come to the Forest 
SerWce from the states, and we are forced in assembling them for statistical purposes 
to enter the damage as reported. If we tried to harmonize these figures, wq have 
great difficulty. In fact, we can liot harmonize them; we simply can put them down 
us reported aaid leave it to the person who scans tlie statistics to do the harmonizing. 
Now, .you can see what a discrepancy there must be between New York's and New 
Jersey's estimates of around a dollar an acre and Massacliusetts' estimate of five 
dollars an acre. This is swmetliiiig I would like to see the states consider. 

GOVERNOR OLCOTT. It seems tc me there is very great discrepancy there. 

Mr. PETERS. I believe that the method of estimating siiould be star.dardized. 
If this could be brought about it would be of considerable benefit to those of us 
who are interested in getting a line on the actual results in fire-protection. 

Mr. WILLIAM P. COX, State Forester, Minnesota. If I may say a word regard- 
ing tliat, our instruction to tlie rangers in a.ssessing fire-damage has been of this 
nature, that no merchantable timber, of course, would bo appraised at its real 
value, AAhich tliey could determine, .uid that the young growth was to be figured 
oil. tlie cost of reidacement, and, of course, on grazing-lands very often we ignore 
fire-damage. 

Mr. SECREST. That is probably applicable to standing timber destroyed out- 
riglit. Fires very fiequciitly occur in Ohio M"oodlands wliich do not destroy the 
.second growth stands, but scar the trees in a manner that with the subsequent en- 
trance of decay may seriously affect the quantity as well as the quality of the tim- 
ber eventually produced. 

Each ground' fire sweeping over a woodland causes damagje to the timber, and to 
tlie soil in various ways, although it may not be apparent at the time. 

Hew are you going to assess damages in such case.<?V 

The CHAIRMAN. It seems to the chair that matter is absolutely one of spec- 
ulation. If there are no otliei- questions—- 

Mr. W. G. HOWxVRD, Assistant Superintendent of Forests, New York. It 
seems to me that you can not make any hard and fast rule in determining this firc- 
damagc. It has got to be fixed by the man who has charge of the fire, or by some- 
one inspecting the burned-over area after the fire is out. It varies so much. We 
have had fires that have done damage to the extent of one hundred dollars an acre, 
where they have destroved ^^rgin timber stands readv for market. We have had 



71 

some fires, notably this past year, which because of weather conditions and conditions 
of the ground, burned lightly over the ground, and twenty-five cionts an acre is easily 
the entire measure of damage caused. It varies so much in different instances that 
it seems to me impossible to lay down any hard and fast rules. 

The CHAIRMAN. Tlie gentleman is entirely right in the opinion of the chair. 

The next gentlemen to address the convention will be Mr. George H. Wirt, of 
Pennsylvania. 

Mr. GEORGE H. WIRT, of Pennsylvania. Mr. Chairman, I realize the pos- 
ition that any man is in that lias chargo of the fire-work in a state and is asked to 
explain tliat work to a buncli of foresters and. to do it in twenty minutes, an hour, 
or even ten hours and twenty minutes. Without going into the details as to the 
whys and the wherefores, whicli all of you know, I .simply want to) refer very 
briefly to the organization whif-li we have, in Pennsylvania, It is the result of an 
evolution which ^started along about the time of William Penn, and is not finished 
yet. In other words, we do not have in Pennsylvania everything we would like 
to have, just as Mr. Gaskill has said and as Mi-. Hutchins has said they do not 
have, but wJiich they are naturally looking for in their own respective states. Tliis 
evolution that has proceeded in I'ennsylvania in regard to the protection of forests 
from fire, started, as I suppose it did in both of yoUr states, with the unorgan- 
ized force made up largely of the individuals wlio happened, to hold land and whose 
land was either being damaged or subject to damage by forest-fires and the few 
friends that they could get together with them in time of emergency to extinguish 
the fire which hnppericd to get stalled. From tliat in Pennsylvania it developed 
into an organization of so-called ex officio forest fire wardeiis, bi\'ng the local 
officials. These men bad been sadtiled with extra diities in addition to the duties 
for which they were hK-ally s(;lected. Township supervisors, road men and tow-n. 
ship and borough constables were at different times so designated in our laws a.s 
ex officio forest fire wardens. Where these men were more or less conscientious, 
more or less appreciative to the oath of office to which they subscribed, and ob.sen- 
ant of tlie duties that were placed upon them by law, some measure of success in 
the protection of forest from fires was accorded ; but, unfortunately too many of 
these men did not know anything about forest-fires and how to extinguish them, 
and cared less. The result of the whole scheme was tliat, taking the average over 
the state, it was serious, and the owners of land had little or no protection over 
and above what they and their friends afforded to their forests. There w-ere some 
remarkable instances, of course, where forest-fires started, and people having the 
connnunity interests at heart got together and protected the forest of n commun- 
ity without regard to ownership. Previous to 1909, still with this ex officio organ- 
ization, there grew up in Pennsylvania different systems, by reason of which me-i 
were paid for the extinction of forest.fires. I can not give you exactly now— it 
makes no difference — ^just when this idea of paying for fire extinction began, but 
it was pretty early in the game, I think co.eqnal with the placing of the duty upon 
the township super\isors and constables. It began at least with tlie idea that the 
. e«ulfty should pay both the officers and wardens and the men who assisted them. 
The first grade of pay for the people who assisted the warden.'? was) rather high at 
the time in proportion to the rate of wage then existing generally over the state, 
with the result that tlicre was a coiutinuous agitation that men and boys and per- 
haps others were setting fires in order to get the compensation for fires extinction. 
That rat© was finally rcdu<:ed. All of these expienses for fire extinction, to start 
with, were paid by the county. Then plan after plan came in from the cofunty 
commissioners, and gradually tlie legish-ture made arrangements tliat a portion oi 



72 

the expanses sliould be borne by the common weal tJi, the county paying it nut in the 
first instance and billing the commonwealth for various percentages, the percentage 
to be paid by the commonwealth constantly increasing. This arrangement pro- 
vided in no way for supervision by the Department of Forestry ; consequently, there 
was little or no cliaiioe o'f keening any kind of tab on ^^llat was done or of giving 
th" ri'sults to any stale organization. 

l;i 1909 the legislature made it po.ssiblc to do away with the ex officio fire war- 
dens and establish a system of wardens directly responsible to the Department of 
P'orestry ; the idea being that there should b ' a so-called district fire warden in eacli 
township and borotigh, and this fire warden to have authority to appoint as many 
assistants as he wanted. There was no way of making these appointments except a.s 
recommendations were sent to the department, and without going into any further 
detail you tnay guess how these recommendaticns were made.. The appointments 
were made, and sometimes we got good men by chance, most of the time we did 
not. Let me say this, however, that this system of appointments and the organiza- 
tion as created under the act of 1909 was somewhat better than the ex officio organ- 
ization ; but the great defect in 1909 orgjuiization was, first, that there was no 
means by reason of which the department could che^^k up the individual men who 
M'ere recommended and who subseqm.^ntly received appointment just the same, nor 
was there any method cf supervision of the men who were appointed. In 1914. 
without going any more into details as to the historical prorosition, we bcgaai 'to 
do something towards checking up the Vt-ardens appointed under the 1909 act. By 
that time we had a number of state foresters located on state forests in twenty- 
six different counties of the state, and wo directed the foresters to take under their 
supervision all of the fire wardens v.ithin their con\ctiient reach and to do this work 
in connection with their nctivities on the state forests. The result of this inspection 
and checking up of forest fii'C wardens by the state foresters was so beneficial that 
it was positive evidence that what wc n<'eded in the vLoIe organization was just 
some such plan, and by various means the 1915 act was finally approved by the 
legislature, which made it possible for the Department of Foresti-y to begin at the 
bottom and really create a new forest-fire organization. As I told .some of you men 
who were at Washington when we began the real re-organization under the 1915 
act. we found men who had been dead four years' still listed as forest fire wardens, 
and. as seme one said, i)ossibly some of them are still fighting fire. Well, we got 
rid of all the dead wood, I think, in the first year after the new law went into ef- 
fect. We dismissed probably sixty per cent including, of course, the dead ones, 
getting that many names off the list, and substituting real, live, wide-awake men 
who were interested in the protection of for<^sts from fires. One of the things whicli 
we desired to do in the 1915 organization was to find men who were interested in the 
proposition from an individual and personal standpoint, and not simplj through the 
proi;osition of the amount of money that they might possibly get out of it. As tlie 
second featiire of the 1915 organization we provided for inspection for I am thorough- 
ly conviniced that no organization, no matter how good the men may be in the field, 
can iiroduce the results that we want them to produce without careful, frequent and 
constant inspection of activities, and wdth that inspection the keeping alive of inteTest 
which the men may have had when they started, but which, by reason of all sorts of 
discouragements which you all know come to the man who is interested in forest 
fires, may gradually diminish, and in many cases it is diminished unless th^^re is a 
constant stream coming in from some one place, coming into his life and keeping him 
up to the highest pitch. AVith that idea we provided for the districting of the state. 
each district to be undler the supervision of the district fire wai-den, whom the law 



73 

spedflcaUy designates shall be a forester. Up until the recent change in our admlnig- 
tration of the Department of Forestry in Pennsylvania that portion of the law was 
never put into complete effect, but under Mr. Pinchot's administration we have 
finally divided the state into twenty-five ;districts, and each district is now in charge 
of a district forester having under his supervision anywhere from sixty to one hun- 
dred and eighty forest fire-wardens. The district forester is made responsible for 
the appointmeut, the choosing of these men, the recommendation of them, and their 
general efficiency in the field. AVe have something ever two thousand forest fire- 
M=iardens, including foresters, state forest rangers and game wardens. All of the 
game wardens are made forest fire wardens. The state police in Pennsylvania are 
made forest fire wardens, although we do not list them individually in our list of 
wardens. We have the very closest cooperation with them. Mr. Gaskill referred to 
the matter, and we feel very proud of the work which has been done by our state 
police independent of aU organizations and cooperating with our organization. We 
feel, and are working on the principle, that evpry acre of forest lands can be put in a 
position, or in a condition, by reason of which it^ receives a reasonable amount of 
protection from forest fires. Therefore there is no limit to thje number of fire 
wardens whom we may appoint in the state. In a great many places we have prob- 
ably considerably more wardens than would be absolutely necessary for the forest 
conditions prevailing in the community, but as long as we do not have to pay them 
twenty dollars or ten dollars a year it makes no difference so far as expense is fcon- 
cerncd, because our wardens are paid only while they are in actual service, or on actual 
duty assigned to tliem, or which arises in the case of a forest fire starting. We do 
}iot limit the appointment of forest fire wardens purely and simply to forest com- 
munities, for we feel that every man, woman and child in Pennsylvania is a prospec- 
tive or possible user of forest land, and we use our forest fire wardens, the whole 
forest fire organization, not only for the control and extinction of forest fires, but to 
develop in every community of the commonwealth a healtliy public spirit against 
for( St fires. And stressing prominently again, as Mr. Gaskill has stat(^d tliat they 
started out with the idc^al thing, there was the idea of prevention of foirest firee. 
Consequently in the southeastern section of the state, where there is very liUle else 
than small woodlands, and in the southwestern section of the state, which lias more 
or less of a similar character in relation to farm lauds, w^e propose to have a suf- 
ficient number of forest fire wardens that these men in their respective communities 
will develop a healthy attitude toward forests and against fire. In connecliou v ith 
the development of this statc^wide forest-fire organization we are also developing 
a state-wide system of observation stations and towers. As is the condition perhaps 
in your respective states, so tlie condition has be(en here ; we have not been able to 
develop these towers by any means as rapidly as we would like to, although I am 
very glad to say "Amen" to what Mr. Gaskill Faid in regard to the erection of 
towers previous to the time that we have the right kini^ of public sentim.ent in the 
community to make the tower' effective. I feel there is a relation between the erec- 
tion of towers and public attitude. You have got to develop the public attitude be- 
fore you erect the toAvers to make the thing work. The proposition is a simple local 
proposition, and Ave must deal with it according to the people, largely the people 
rather than the forest conditions whicli exist. With the toAvers, of course, Ave are de- 
veloping the telephone system. I can not toll yo)U off-hand how many of the fori st 
fire Avardens have telephones in their homes, but one of the propositions that we 
hold out to the forest fir© Avardens is that the men shall have telephones either in 
their homes or at least available within a short distance, if there is any tolephone 
line at all in the district. We haA'e in Pennsylvania unfortunately a great many 
districts where there is no telephone serA'ice, and in such districts we must have our 
own, of course, as part of the state equipment; and that we are working on, ua- 



74 

in? the state forests, which you sec liere marked in green, as a nucleus around which 
ihose systems will be developed. We, of course, must have the best kind of telo- 
pliouc communication with our foresters, both from the Harrisburg office to I'^-^n* 
and from tlie foresters to their rangers, and tlien f n m the foresters to tl:o fore^-t 
fire wardens, and so on down tlirough the line. 

I might stop here just a moment to go back to the peri^onnel question. In our 
scheme we have constantly from the beginning induced our wardens to devei,)]) local 
forest-fire crews, picking out the best men of the community whom they find, and 
whom tluy can induce to join with them in tliis forest-protection work, unci to keep 
them together as a center around which the other vtlunteers, or the ones who are 
compelled to go fight fires, wall Work on the fire-lines. We believe that the organi- 
;cation must be state-wide, must consist not only of the higher and the controllin>; 
otiicers and tlie inspectors, and then the fire-wardens, but the organization must 
alv^o include the individuals in the respective communities who arc goinj; to Le'ii 
the fire-wardens right out on the job when a fire occurs. We are endeavoring to 
get just as many of these forest fire-figliting crews organized as it is possible (o g"t 
together. 

'J'his leads then directly to the matter of the development of cooperation with any 
kind of individual organization, or what not, that the foresters or the fire-w-irdent- 
might find of value in their communities. I will say here, as Mr. Pinchot referred 
to the matter yesterday, that we have gc tten the most splendid cooperation from 
our Boy Scout organization in this state. There have been several instances in 
Pennsyhania this spring where if it had not been for the support gi^fn tLc fire^ 
wardens by the Boy Scouts of America, 1 do not like to think what might p<nssibly 
I'.ave happened. They have been splendid boys and scoutmasters in the protecti'>.i 
work and have been of splendid help to us. Mr. Pinchot told you of the organi- 
zation of the Forest Guides which we ari' developing through the Boy Scout organi- 
zation. We have given them a very nice little button. It was my pleasure th.>. 
other night to give the buttons to thirty-two scouts of one troop here in the city, 
and to say something about the importance of protecting forest from fire, and to 
tell them what the organization means to them and to us. I was very much grati- 
fied the next morning to meet the father of two of the boys of the troop and ha\'e 
him tell me what the, boys told him when they went home that evening. So that is 
just one instance, and if it happened in this instance, 1 have every reason to be- 
lieve that the same thing will happen in many other instances, for the boys Iweut 
hi.:;5e and the parents wanted to know what this button was. The purpo.«c for 
which this work among boys was started was, of course, accomplislied. In addition 
to that, one of the boys to whom I gave a button the other night said, '"I will Jiave 
a dickens of a time explq^ning to the boys at the Technical High School what this 
button is. for."' I said, "Go to it, that is just what we w^ant you to do." The result 
of it is there is a mighty big publicity proposition. I do not know wlu-ther it win 
bo like the bone-head from Salem, Oregon, but it will go a long wiiy to put thr 
publicity in the hearts and minds of the people we want to Tcacli. 

In addition to the towers and telephone lines which we arc planning, we ha\t' 
done very little in the way of furnisliing our men with equipment, not bc/t-ausc wr 
have not wanted to, but because we have not seen our way clear for financial or 
other reasons to place equipment in the hands of the forest fire-'wardens. Per- 
sonally I felt there was greaJt ri.sk in placing eqiiipment in the hands of wardens 
until we had our inspection system in such shape and condition that the inspectors 
or district foresters could keep tab from time to time on the material furnished. 
Judging from i)ast experiences with stati'-owned I'quipmeiit and publicly owned 



75 

equipment, it was a very easy propositii n for the iiHii\idiifil v\lio haiijieiiffi to get 
a hoe or rake on the fire-line to very quietly take it along hou e witii him or da:oi.> 
'it in the brush where he could conveniently find it the next day, and the result of 
it was that the tools wore used on the neighboring farms instead of being ready fcr 
the next forest-fire. 

Now, with our inspection system complete, I am very anxious that we begin t<» 
develop complete tool-sets for all of our men. We furniph, of have furnished this 
year to some of our foresters, in fact I think we have sent a set to each district 
forester, some rakes, some torches, some axes, one cross-cut saw apiece, and « 
few other smaller tools. There is just one little tool that we have developed in 
Pennsylvania that I would like to call your attention to, if I miny. It may have 
some interest to you even though you do not agree with our beck-firiug n f tbods 
in Pennsylvaina. It may be of value and of interest to some of ycu other men, and 
even Mr. Hutchins and other men in Massachusetts, a little wooden rake — you sav." 
it on the table in the department — with four or six teeth in it, 8i:d a Aoy ssbort 
handle. It is so cheap that it does not make any difference whether a tltllow car- 
ried it home or nf t. In case he docs take it along Lome it is an encouragemeilit to 
.somebody to make one like it, and at awy rate he will La>e it ready for tho next 
fire. This rake is useful in cleaning a trail ;n front of a fire, either to stop 
the original fire or to rake a .trail fi-om which to start a back-fire. I would likte to 
call your attenticn to the Jiew forest-fire tool wliich we have developed as the result 
of the fertile mind of one of the fire-wardens. It is known as the Rich forest-fire 
tool, and we think it is the best^ thing available in the forest-fire eq^tiimrnit for 
Pennsylvania at least. Of that also a sample is rm the table in the Department of 
Forestry, and you can see it there. 

Probably the best way in which you can get an idea of the state-wide organisa- 
tion which we have in Pennsylvania is to look at the forest fire map which we hare 
in the department, showing the location of the fire-wardens, observation «tationt». 
and so on, which is also up in our department, if ycu have not already (observed it. 
We have indicated there by pins the location of aU our fire-wardens, the location 
of all of the towers we are now using, and that is a mighty valuable map in the 
forest-fire game, especially during the forest-fire season. I am not going any furth 
er into the details of our organization unless you ask me some quostions in regard to 
it. 

Just a point in regard to the ideal fcr whieli we are working in Pennsylvania, or 
at least the ideal which we are trying to tell our fire-wardens, and which will 
answer a number of Professor Lovejoy's questions as to' what we think is the ideal 
for Pennsylvania ; also just to give you a few figures as to what has been accompli- 
shed under a comparatively small appropriation for a state where we have at leawt 
ten million acres of forest-lands to prottKJt, and where we also have some railroadx, 
and some hunters, and a few other fellows who are careless' with their fires. We 
have in the ordinary course of things too many of that kind, but we have got to en- 
dure them just as you fellows have, and it is our game to offset the unsatisfactorj 
conditions which have developed and to make things right. In 1913, as far as the 
figures show that, we were able to collect, the average forest-fire in Pennsylvania 
was something like three hundred and eighty acres. This fall the average firo was 
sixty-four acres. The average for the whole year this year will probablj- be close 
to one hundred and fifty-eight acres. Last year it was down to one hundred ami 
thirty-four, but this spring we had a beautiful forest-fire .season, and our avera.^'c 
for the year may run a little higher tlian the average for last year, although I do 
not known yet, for the reports arc not all in ; but a drop in the avernje from three 



76 

hundred and eightj- acres per firo to sixty-four acres per tire 1 think is some sliglit 
accompllKhment. It at least shews that with any kind of a decent fire-organization 
we can accomplish results. Now, the thing I am tolling our lire-wardens, and th^j 
only thing I am holding up to them, is that we Avant to reduce the average per lire 
in Pennsylvania to ten acres. That is not a real ideal by any manner of means, 
but I do feel that if we can keep that in (he minds of our men, and keep them on 
the jump, so that the average fire in Pennsylvania will como down, say, in the next 
ten years, and I hope" it will before that ; hut if in the next ten years we keep th-; 
acreage per fire in Penns-ylv.ania down to ten acres, 1 think we shall have accom- 
plished remarkable results, and will put tlie piotection from forest-fires preriy 
nearly where it ought to bo in Peimsylvania. 

Mr. BESLEY. I was just wondering about the financial situation. It would 
be of interest to me to know how much you pay your district rangers right on 
down for fires. 

Mr. WIRT. The 1915 law provid<>s that the chief forest fire-warden shall re- 
ceive twenty-five hundred dollars per year. The law provides that the district 
fire-warden shall receive eighteen hundred dollars per year, although under tlie 
present arrangement of placing district foresters, by doing away with the term 
"district fire-wardens," simply having the foresters, under the general department 
as foresters, paid out of the department's funds, these men are receiving anywhere 
from seventeen hundred to two thousand; fifteen to twenty-four hundred doUuib 
is the scale. The next men in rank, as we now ha\c it, are the fire-wardens, who 
receive the magnificent salary of thirty cents per hour while on duty. However, 
if we employ or designate any cf these forest fire-wardens as permanent observers 
at towers, we are authorized according to law to pay only fifty dollars per year ; 
but by paying them as laborers, and by reason of the cooperation which we reiceive 
in th.e majority of cases through protccti\e associations of the state or our friend, 
iSIr. Peters, at AVashingtou, we are able to pay these men aayAvhcre from fifty to 
one hundred dollars per mouth. The men who assist the fire-wardens in the ex- 
tinguishing of forest-fires we are allowed to pay anywhen; up to twenty-five cents 
per hour for the time which they actually put in. The apprc priatiou which we 
received for the work of the bureau of forest protection from the 1915 session of the 
Legislature, was sixty thousand dollars for two years ; in 1919 we received ninety 
thousand dollars for two years. Does that answer your question? 

Mr. LOVBJOY. I should like to inquire as to the coat of protection as yoii 
have it now, thai is to say, the cost which you charge up. ilow much an aci>eV 

Mr. WIRT. Taking the forest-land as nearly as we know at ten million acres, 
or practically that, taking the expenditure of the state as forty-five thousand dollars 
a year, which it averages, and considering the fact that private individuals un- 
questionably spend as much as we do, if not twice as much, you can figure out the 
cost yourself. 

Mr. I.OVEJOY. Would it be five cents? 

Mr. WIRT. No, I do not believe we have spent, in fact I know we have net 
spent five cents ; but five cents per acre is what we arc hitting at, and that is in 
accordance with the request we are now making. 



77 

Mr. L<)\'EJUY. With five cents an acre of stale mouey, and such au organiza- 
tion as you expect to have pretty soon, can you get your firc-Ioss down to one per 
cent of your area per year? 

Mr. WIRT. I believe we can. 

Mr. LOVE.JOY. But that does not include the volunteer labor of the people 
in the woods and farms in pntecting their own property, and so forth, what woim.1 
be the total items of expense; individual plus state expenses? 

Mr. WIRT. I say, Mr. Lovejoy, the proposition at tlie present stage of the 
game is like this, that if the state can get five cents per acre every year, «ay, on 
the basis of ten million acres of forest to be protected, and we can get that allot- 
ment or proportion for, say, whatever period of years it may be necessary in order 
to establish our tower-system and telephone-line system, and to place in the hands 
of our organization the equipment, more or less pennanent, which we need, that 
then we can begin to drop back s© that the stato expenditures plus the private ex- 
penditure will not exceed five cents per acre. In other wwrds, I feel that when we 
have our organization complete and our equipment complete we can safely count on 
complete protection at an expenditure of five cents per acre all told. 

Mr. LOVEJOY. But doesn't your "complete protection" involve a loss of one 
per cent per acre every third year? 

Mr. WIRT. N©, I will go even better thau that. If we reach that stage of the 
game we are going to do better than one per cent. We are not going to have that 
much burned over. 1 also feel like Mr. Hutcliins and Mr. Gaskill that if it is pos- 
sible for us to have the actual number of fires ©n the increase, but the measure of 
the protection will be not necessarily in the reduction of fires ; although I have 
great hopes in a considerable reduction, I am banking on it. v I believe it is possi- 
ible, because witli the cooperation we get from the railroad companies this fall for 
example ; and you may be extremely interested in knowing that we had a very small 
percentages »f forest fires from railroads, less perhaps than any year for which we 
have figures. And I believe that with the constant and persistent development of 
the safety-strip movement along the railroads, and with the probable inspection of 
railroad locomotives, that we can cut thirty ©r thirty-five or forty per cent of the 
fires caused by railroads down possibly to five per cent of the total. But with 
that reduction in such causes we are altogether likely to have an: increased number 
of fires from other causes, so that the total may be slightly on tlie increase for 
ficveral years to come ; also considering tlie fact that with the completion of the 
t('wer system, and patrol system, and perhaps an increased number of wa.rdens, 
that we will come closer and closer t© one hundred per cent report instead of per- 
haps ninety as I feel we geC now. 

Mr. HARRINGTON. Before this subject is closed up I would just like to have 
the benefit of the experience of the men in the East, in which states unquestionably 
these forest fire organizations are developed to a higher point. Out where I come 
from we would like to know just what effect high rates of pay have on the mal- 
icious netting of fires. Now, I understand that in New Jersey the rate of two 
dollars an hour up to two hours is paid, and after that fifty cents an hour is al- 
lowed. I wab wondering whether or not that would not set up a tendency to mal- 
ieiounness in the netting <>i fires, and really in a way tie establishing of a »ort of 



78 

forest tiri' industry in a good many localities Avhen work fell off. Mr. Win 
rouclu-d on that a little, and I was wondering about it. He mentioned that as hav- 
ing occured in tlii« state several years back, and I would like to have the benefit 
of your fxperience in the«e states alotng tliis particular line. 

Mr. (iASKILL. Tliere has always been a suspicion, even an asscrtiwu, that pay- 
ment for extingnishiiig fires induced a wrtain class of people to set fires for the 
sake of the jiay. That wa.s one of the strmig arguments made against obr mini- 
iiniiii late. 1 am free to say that in the early days there may have been an occas- 
ional cabe of malicious fire-setiing, but 1 am practically sure, that within ten years 
wi< have had not even a strongly su.spicious case of that kind. The essence of the 
answer .soecms to be that with the right kind of supervisory organization, both wdth 
r('s|)pct to the original appwintment of the fire-wardens, and with respect to the 
■.nsjx-ction fcrer thert* is little leal danger of that kind. 

Mr. WIK'P. 1 heartily agree with everything Mr. Gaskill has just said. 1 
feel that the proposition, the choosing of men, inspection, policing, judging from 
my own |)Kst experience with tliem, would be sufficient to check up on any diffi- 
culties of that kind. We did have one instance of it several years back, when we 
were jn-etty hard pressed for good men to fight fires, and some of the boys of the 
community were pres.sed into service ; and witliout tlninking as to what the results 
might bi' these b»ys were paid for their services, and were paid a rate which was 
almost nn much as the rate for able-bodied men, with the result that we* had some 
lew incendiary firesj in that neighborhood. Finally one of our state forest-rangers 
caught a kid setting a fire, and in his confession bef«re the justice he owned up 
to the fact that he set the fire only to get the pay. With that, knowledge in front 
of us we stopped paying the boys in the community. If they went to the fire they 
fought without pay. There is, of course, always that chance that some one might 
•set a fire for the little bit of money that he gets out of it, but if you have wardens 
and the wardens are on the job, and see that the men do any kind of decent 
work, there is not much danger. I remember one instance that came to mj'. atten- 
tion in the laat three or four yfars. There was a grave suspicion that a certain 
indivichial had been setting fires in order to get tlic pay for the wo'i-k of extinction. 
Our t'tfiester got wind of it, aid, of course, the next fire that occured tjiis in- 
ni\idual was one of the first fellows who was notified to go to the fire. I suppose 
you know we have in our law in Pennsylvania a compulsory provision, and if a 
man i.s directed to go to fight a fire he must obey. This individual was well aware 
of this faet. Of course, one of the foresters saw that he was put right up to the 
flame, aiul was kept there until the fire was out. From tliat time .on! to the pres- 
ent time, so far as I know, there lias never been any suspicion raised against tha.t 
man for .'ctting fire. Some of those things the local men can do on occasion if sus- 
liicjcm arises, so that I believo there is no danger in an arrangement by reason of 
which a man may get a certain rate of wage for the work that he does in counect- 
ifin with protection from forest-fire. 

While I am on my feet, Mr. Chairman, my attention was just called to the 
fact that I made a statement which was in error. I inadvertently stated that our 
patrol-men were paid one hundred and fifty dollars. As a matter of fact, they are 
laid from fifty tw one hundred dollars a month, and the clerks will please make 
the correction. 

Mr. HUTCHINS. Speaking about the rate of pay, some twelve years ago, dur- 
ing a bad fire in New York, I remember the rate of pay being increased as high 
as ^1.50 per hour for Inbor. and it was n suppositian at that time that this hijh 



79 

rate of pay was the cause of many additional fires. In Massachusetts, we are pay- 
ing our forest wai'dens an average rate of $.50 per hour at the present time. 

Mr. W. J. MORRILL, State Forester, Colorado. We have a method of rais- 
ing fire crews in Coloradu which may be of interest to some of you outside of the 
national forest. The sheriffs are responsible for the extinguishment of fires. We 
have a metliod frequently employed for raising a crew which costs notlung, and, of 
course, we know the men diat fight the fires also are not the fellows who set the 
fires because we have this very simple arrangement. The sheriff takes the prisosi- 
ors out of the jail, loads' them into cars, and he takes the whole crew of the petty 
prisoners out and fights the fire, and then he brings them back. I have fought on 
two fires at least where nearly tlie whole crew was made up of prisotaers, and they 
fight well. They do just as well as hired help, and they all come back to pail. Of 
it'Urse, they liave plenty of opiiortunity to escape. I once complimented the chiof 
of police of Colorado Springs on the fact that about twenty men we had out on the 
fire all came back and he said, "Yes, I was very much disgusted that they did." 

The CHAIRMAN. I would like to remind the members of the conference that 
tlie time is going on ; it is five minutes of twelve. The next paper will be read by 
\V. G. Howard, of New York, on ''Special Fire Hazards." 

Mr. W. G. HOWARD. Assistant Superintendent of Forests, New York. Mr. 
Chairman and gentlemen : Before proceeding to take up the topic which has b?e'.'. 
assigned to me, I would like first to comment on something which is closely allied 
to it. I do not feel quite as discouraged about the proposition of preventing raii- 
road-fires as Mr. Hutchins seemed to be. I think they can be practically eliminated. 
I do not believe we wiU do it in a year. We had a good many fires in New 
^'ork state this pa^t year, but I do believe it is possible. We had a demonstratien 
which showed that, with the proiper organization and attention on the part of the 
railroad company, fires started by coal-burning locomotives can be prevented. It 
was on the Adirondack line where, for eleven or twche years, the use of oil-fuel 
during the daytime in tlie summer months has been required. Last spring just be- 
fore the opening of the fire season the railroad men came down to Albany and put 
a petition up to the public service commission, saying they wanted relief from burn- 
ing oil, because it was impossible to assure themselves of an adequate supply ©I" 
fuel for the season. Wo looked up that statement and found it to be substantially 
correct. Therefore, if the railroad was to be relieved at all we would have to let 
tliem burn co'al, and we decided that after imposing every possible safeguard w(> 
would take the chance. We pro\ided for a very rigid patrol, carefully checked up 
by responsible officials ; and for fire trains to be ready at all times, and for the use 
of one of the finest type of locomotives, big superheater locomotives, equipped with 
a suitable type of spark-arrester, a thing which experience has shown was effective, 
and also equipped with a suitable ash-pan, the clearing of the right-of-way to be 
done as usual ; because with the very great sums of money at stake, oil burning 
costing the railroads tremendously with the ordinary price of fuel oil, and this 
year what oil there was was very high in price. Because of the very large sums of 
money at stalie the railroads put their best and most conscientious efficiency men 
in charge of keeping these coal-bui-ncrs in good condition. As a result they operated 
throughout the summer, under one extension of time after another. They operated 
tJiese coal-burners right through the woods in May and June and again in October, 
v/hen we had some of the dryest weather, and the greatest fire hazard that we have 
had in a great many years. They set practically no fires. There were tJiree ov 
four reported, but we have no definite assurance that any of them can be directly 
attributed to locomotives. They might have been set by smokers or tramps aleng 



80 

the right-of-Avay, or somctJiiiig of that sort. It just shows what can be done with 
thp railroads taking the proper interest and putting the riglit kind of men in charge 
of it. 

The title "special fire hazards" is rather general and might easily be construed to 
cover nearly our whole fire-protection system. However, my present intention is to 
confine myself to considering under that head a dangerous condition which may b« 
ci-eated on fores»t-lands, and which increases the normal fire hazard. In tliiw 
c(<nneetion I will endeavor to make suggestions as to methods of control to be ap- 
plied in each case. 

Perhaps the greatest danger from carelessly started forest-fires exists along th« 
railroads and highways and trails which run through forest lands. The danger from 
fires started by locomotives along the railroad lines is too' well understood to need 
nuich discussion here. Our method of taking cai-e of this situation in New York 

First: To take care of the locomotives themselves, either by requiring the use of 
oil-fuel or by requiring the best known fire-protective appliances for ash pans and 
frcnt-ends of coal-burning locomotives, and to see that these are at all times properly 
maintained. 

Second : To see that the railroad right-of-way is kept cleared of all inflftinmable 
material for its entire lengtii, to a distance of fifty feet each side of tlie track. 
Broadcast burning of the entire right-of-way at least once a' year is required wherever 
possible. Lately we have induced the railroads to cooperate by burning over the en- 
tire right-of-way. 

Third : The reduction of the fire hazard on lands -adjoining the railroad right- 
of-way. This last is made possible by a provi;?ion in our conservation law whicu 
forbids the leaving of debris or slash from a lumbering operation within twenty-five 
feet of the outer edge of the right-of-way. Tliis is a great protection to adjoining 
timberlands, and can be accomplished at little or no expense if the operator takes 

care to fell his timber away from the railroad rather than towards it. 

- - . ,. — ,p 

The fire hazard along "well-traveled liighways is great, and it is increased when 
the brush is cut within the highway right-of-way, usually three or four rods wid^, 
and permitted to lie on the ground and dry out until it fcrnis tJie best kind iof tin- 
der to kindle a fire from a match or cigarette carelessly thrown out from a passing 
vehicle. Lumbering operations are frequently carried on adjacent to highways and 
the slash left along the edge of the road to create an extraordinary fire hazard. 

These conditions are met by us with a provision in the law reciuiring the removal 
of any brush or slash not only from the highway right-of-way itself, but also from 
a twenty-foot strip adjacent it. It is customary for the town authorities to mow the 
brush and weeds along the liighways at If^ast once a year. Wo require tliat this 
material be disposed of, such disposal being usually offrcted' by burjiing. 

The cost of this is not great, nor is tiic cost (o the luinborman of keeping clear the 
strip outside the right-of-way very burdensome if he goes at it in the right way. 
The results, however, are good enough to justify even a considerable expense, because 
of their effectiveness in fire-procfing adjoining timberlands, at least from the care- 
lessness of those who travel the beaten highways. 



81 

These requirements apply, it is true, only to slash, croated by the owner of tli'' 
Umd and not as the result of fires or windfall. Still, the greater part of the danger 
ia taken care of. 

There are, of course, many footpaths or trails where- the restrictions governing 
the removal of slash can not be applied. However, it has been our experience that 
it is not difficult to convince the land-owner that it is to his own interest to reduce 
the fire hazard along any trail as much as can be done at reasonable expense. We 
have pointed out the advantages to be gained by clearing back brush and jslash 
from a trail wliieh passes through a lumbering operation, and we have found the 
lumbermen ready to cooperate by taking care of this danger. 

So much for fire hazards along well-defined routes of travel. However, the average 
fisherman or hunter is not content to confine his wanderings to roads or ,even trails. 
The best fishing andl hunting can usually be found in the more inaccessible parts of 
the woods. 

This brings us to a consideration of the reduction of fire hazards on cut-over lands. 
We have a law in New York state which requires the lopping of *tbe tops .of con- 
iferous trees; that is, the lateral branches must be cut off the top so that both the 
trunk and branches will lie close to the ground and decay more rapidly. This 
method of taking care of thc'scftwood slash seems to answer very well in our north- 
woods forests. While it is true that the fire danger is not decreased for the first 
two or three years after lumbering, the hazard is rapidly reduced after that time 
because of the quickness with which decay sets in. 

I would not recommend the lopping of softwood tcps as a panacea under all con- 
ditions. Burning the slash is not practicable with the deep duff and dense forest 
conditions of our Adirondack region. Lopping is far less expensive and seems to 
fill the bill. 

Our greatest concern at the present time> is with the reduction of the fire hazard 
on lands which have been lumbered for both hard and soft woods. The hardwood 
tops, under our present standards of utilization, are huge and ungainly, and the 
question of what to do with such a slash is one that has troubled us for some time. 

Any investigations we have made — and we had splendid assistance last summer 
from Mr. Austin Gary, of the United States Forest Service — have failed to show 
that the lopping of hardwood tops facilitates their decay materially, if at all. 
When left unloppcd they cease to be a fire menace after five or six years. Further- 
more, it is a fact that the lopping of hardwood tops is very expensive and we feel 
that the money required for that work can be spent lo better advantage in other 
ways. 

As I said before, probably ninety per cent of our forest-fires are the result of 
carelessness. Bearing this in mind, we naturally turnod to some method of pre- 
venting the starting of fires in these bad lufiiber slashes, with a provision for attack- 
ing promptly any fires that might be started. At the present time we are now 
considering presenting the following plan to the next session of the legislature, with 
a view to securing the necessary amendments to the law. Prominent land-owners 
and lumbermen have declared themselves in favoi- (f it. 

Inasmuch as the fire hazard on lands lumbered for both hard and soft woods is 
too great, we would authorize the conservation commission to post all areas so 
Jum-bered — except small lumbering operations where no great fire hazard wa* 
8 



82 

created. Such postiug would be effected by placing notices at certain legally pre- 
scribed intervals around the area in question. The notice would recite that the 
laud was closed to hunting and fishing,' on account of the fire hazard,: for a perio'i 
of five (or possibly six) years from the date of posting. Trespassers would be liabl- 
to criminal prosecution. 

Needless to say the posting would not be effective uidess enforced, and we would, 
therefore, ask for authoi-ity to require the land-owner to maintain a sufficient patrol 
to keep out trespassers during the period of years tlie posting was to be in effect. 
Tiie patrolman would also be equipped with fire-fighting tools, and would be 
required to fight any fires that might be started. This wtuld be a very intensive 
patrol, coordinated with our regular protective system. We would have the law- 
provide that where the land-owner failed to maintain the patrol, the commission 
would have authority to put men on, and the expense thus caused should he a lien 
on the land. 

The advantages of such a plan are obvious. The complaint is often heard fi-oci 
land-owners and lumbermen that fires are caused on their hands by irresponsibly 
fishermen and hunters; and yet the owners hesitate to post their lands for fear that 
objection on the part of the local people may embarrass their operations or eve'i 
lead to incendiarism. The proposed plan coiitemplates that the commission will 
assume the onus of the posting, but that the landowner will get much of the benefits 
of it. It is only fair that he would bear the expense of the special patrol in order 
to take care of the special fire hazard he has created by his own lumbering opera- 
tions. 

Another thing about this plan that is attractive to the owners is that in this w-?iy 
they are taking care of the special fire hazard on their own property. Most of thera 
are willing to concede their responsibility for bearing a certain proportion of the 
expense for protecting cut-over land. Now, the advantage of this plan is that that 
expense comes when they ha%e just received their money for the timber which 
they sold off that land, and they have the opportunity of setting aside a sum of 
money at that time in order that they may carry out their plan for the next five or 
six years, when it viill be less burdensome than if they were asked to put on a con- 
siderable patrol or pay taxes of some kind befcre they had cut tlie timber. 

The principle is generally conceded, and I believe generally accepted by lumber- 
men, that a man has no right to create a nuisance and to endanger) his neighbors' 
property without at least taking all reasonable steps to abate that nuisance. I 
prepared a part of this paper and then in reading it over I felt that perhaps you 
would like some figures. I can not claim gi'eat accuracy for these figures. Let us 
assume an area of six acres to be limited every six years, let us say a irectangular 
area, or perhaps roughly a circular area, one department could take care of it seven 
months each year. Five years would cost thirty-one dollars ten cents, or three 
dollars eleven cents per acre for the entire fire season. As a matter of fact, in the 
average season it would be unnecessary to maintain the intensive patrol for more 
than a total of a month or six weeks of the entire season. At a very conservathe 
estimate in cutting three thousand board-feet, hardwood board-feet, per acre, at a 
cost of two cents per thousand feet, lopping the hardwood tops, we would have an 
expense of six dollars per acre, and practically nothing to show for it. For about 
half that amount, under our proposed plan, w'e can give that limited area more in- 
tensive and effective protection. (Applause.) 



8S 

Mr. PETERS. I would like to ask Mr. Howard whether the cost of the patrol 
would be a charge against tiio lumbering operation, or whether it would have to be 
included as a part of the cost of so-called complete protection. 

Mr. HOWARD. Wfc would have that expense bonie by the men who cut over 
the timber-lands. Does that answer your question? That the owner of the land 
himself should be requii-ed by this law to install that patrol, that enforcement of 
the posting, after the lumbering operation is completed. 

Mr. PETERS. I understand that you do not include the cost of brush-disposal, 
by which I mean lopping, or piling, or burning, or the like, as a part of the cost of 
complete protection by the state, and, I was wondering whether you would treat 
the 'patrolling cost in like manner. 

Mr. HOWAHD. I tliink that this would absolutely be a cost of protection. 

Mr. PETERS. Brush-disposal is a logging cost. It is a cost which is charge- 
able to the logging operation. 

Mr. HOWARD. Yes, it is incurred! on account of the loggiaig operation, it in 
not limited to brush-disposal. 

Mr. HXJTCHINS. I would like to ask, do you think it is necessary to patr»l 
that seven months of the year? 

Mr. HOWARD. No, I should have stated that that seven months is in the 
Adirondacks, the duration of our fire-season, that is the maximum figure, I believe. 
If we get this scheme organized and have close enough cooperation of the special 
patrolmen, we thus can a.ssure ourselves, with our regular fire-protective forces, that 
we wUl be able to make arrangements whereby lumbermen who will be working near 
at hand might assign certain of their crew to do that patrolling, nor could we get 
better forest-rangers. For instance, that could have been made very intensive durin:j 
this present year, which was a bad year for fires, because the fire-danger this year 
was concentrated in two periods, one in the spring ond one in the fail. Six weeks 
of patrolling would have safeguarded practically all of the cut-over lajul during this 
past season. Another year we might have a less severe fire-danger extending over 
two or three months, and where the operator had men working in that vicinity 
they could go and patrol this tract on short notice, and whero we could be abso- 
lutely sure that they would be gotten in there. We would be able to relieve him of 
a great deal of that expense. 

The CHAIRMAN. We are a little behind the schedule. We have a few more 
papers this morning. I think we can get through them this morning so we can 
start w'ith a clean slate promptly at 2 o'clock. If that is agreeable to every one? 

The next paper on the program is "Forestry on State Timber Lands," by 
William T. Cox, of Minnesota. 

Mr. WILLIAM T. COX, State Forester, Minnesota. It seems to me that before 
attempting to cover the subject that has been assigned to me, that of "Fofestry on 
State-owned Lands," it is necessary to say something in i-egard to the fire-protection 
that must necessarily' precede the practice of forestry on those lands. I am not in 
a position to talk with regard to very many states, because I am not familiar with 
just what is happening at tbe present time in the other states ; but in Minnesota we 



84 

have a particularly interesting situation. In our state we ha\e perhaps greater 
fire-danger than in most any of the other states, that is because the forest is; a 
particularly inflammable kind of forest, and also because it borders on the prairie 
region, and is a windy section of country, and moreover we have in Minnesota the 
largest area of peat-land to be found in the United States. These peat-lands during 
the last ten or fifteen years have been drained in large part and have been transform- 
ed from the safest fire district to the most dangerous to be found anywhere. Another 
thing that interests us particularly is the fact that in the past our fires have some- 
times developed into very serious propositions, terrible conflagrations, that destroy 
whole communities. In some states you have little of that sort of thing, particular- 
ly in the central and some of the eastern states, where a fire may kill little tim- 
ber, do a little damage, but it is not likely to destroy cities and villag.es, or ruin 
whole settlements. With us these fires may vci-y easily develop into just that sort 
of thing, and have so developed in the past on several occasion^. So every G»ffort 
in Minnesota has been aimed at the prevention of these serious conflagrations. That 
was the first job. 

The secondary thing was the reduction of fire-losses in general, and these were 
preliminary to doing anything in regard to state-owned lands and the actual prac- 
tice of forestry on them. 

I want to tell you samething else, and it seems to me very interesting to foresters. 
I believe that in the last year there has been demonstrated in Minnesota t^w. fact 
that serious conflagrations are absolutely needless. They can be prevented. We 
have had during the last year, the last fire-season, one of the worst on record, one 
of the longest, one of the driest, one of the windiest, and all conditions were favor- 
able to tlie worst kind of fire catastrophies occurring. It was necessiary to be on 
the job in full force, and luckily we are in such a position that we could organize 
our forces better during the past year than at any other time. We had a larger 
appropriation to start with. Of course, it was not large enough for the depart- 
ment, but we had available another fund, the so-called board of relief fund, which 
the last session of legislature provided, and that money was supposed to be avail- 
able 'to prevent or relieve distress in case of calamity or impending calamity; go 
that when the situation became really serious I went to the board of relief, consist- 
ing of the governor, auditor and state treasurer, and asked them for funds to aid our 
own particular foi'ccs, and pointed out the need for the money, and they gave it to 
us. It enabled us to more than double the force of patrolmen at a time when this 
was very necessary. As a result, while we had this 'very critical situation, over 
nine hundred fires occuring, not one of those fires got away during the whole season, 
not one of them was out of control at any time, and yet tliere w^erc fires of very con- 
siderable size, and especially in this poat-land, the country that I spoke of. In one 
instance we had to dig a trench seventy miles long, and that was actually done by a 
force of about two hundred men, and that fire did net escape from the peat terri- 
tory. The thing seems to me to have been thoroughly demonstrated that calami- 
ties can be prevented. We are always going to have some forest-fire loss. I be- 
lieve we are likely to have more fires in the futures tlian we have had in the past. 
Settlement is taking place in the timber country, and more and more there is added 
danger; but the fires are going to be smaller, tliey are going to be extinguished 
more promptly. 

Now, in regard to other fire-protective work, we have the railroads pretty well or- 
ganized. The railroads during the past season expended almost exactly one hun- 
dred thousand dollars in Minnesota in patrolling their tracks. We laid greater 
stress on the patrolling tliere than we do on the spark-arrestor and right-of-way 



85 

cleaning work, because we find tliat with us it works better. They are thoroughly 
organized. We can ask the railroads to put on so many men, equipped in such 
and such a manner, and they put them on. More recently we have persuaded them 
to put supervisory officers on to see that these men work properly. They repoi-t to 
our district rangers just the same as though they were state-paid men, so that it is 
equivalent to adding a considerable force to our forest service. Then the lumber 
companies have expended fifty thousand dollars on their own property, which is in 
addition to slash-disposal work. The townships have voted on themselves to ap- 
propriate additional taxes to provide fire-funds in different townships which aggr*;- 
gate one hundred and forty-two thousand dollars, and this money also is expended 
under the direction of our rangers. Forty-three thousand dollars was furnished by 
the board of relief in the emergency for patrolling for a short time. So there was 
a total, with the funds from the federal government under the Week's law, of four 
hundred and fifteen thousand dollars for fire-protection. That is- equivalent to 
about two cents an acre, because we have a little over twenty million acres to pa- 
trol. That -with us, with the present state of settlement, affords what I consider 
adequate protection. Roughly speaking, it might be improved, of course; but 1 
believe that during an average year it wUl give us sufficient protection, all we can 
reasonably ask for. 

In regard to the state lands, the state owns about two million acres in Miunesoi:i, 
but it is in different classes, different lauds; some of it is school land', some lands 
granted for different purposes, some of it consists of state forests, about four hun- 
dred and fifty thousand acres have been set aside for state forests. The land wit'i- 
in the state forest is given some added care, and some degree of forestry is practic- 
ed. In the timber-cutting operations on state lands outside of the state forests, 
perhaps better fire-protection is afforded than on most private land, but very little 
forestry has been attempted or is possible under the existing law. Of tb,e state forest 
lands, some are also parks. For instaaice, we have Itasca Park at the head of the 
Mississippi river. It is about thirty thousand acres in extent, and it contains cue 
huiidred million feet of pine. Some of the other state forests have very valuable 
stands of timber. In the case of Itasca Park we have an illustration of what can 
be done in state forests, even in a small one. I maintain that is one of the best 
Ulustraticns in the country, and it is put under rather intensive management. 
Fires are absolutely Jpreventod in that park. A fire:break has been constructed 
around it, it is thoroughly patrolled, it is covered with a telephone system and look- 
out towers, as well as a force of men watching it. Some timber-cutting if done, 
but it is done under forestry rules, and very carefully, so tliat where it lias been 
logged over you would scarcely know it has been logged at all. The game is 
thorougly protected, for it is also a game refuge, and perhaps as good an illustra- 
tion of a game refuge as can be found anywhere. The deer have increased wonder- 
fully, and the beavers there run the whole place over, there being ten to fiftei-n 
hundred of them in the park. Otter have como in and are thriving there, and it is 
intensely interesting piece of state property. Now, we hope to see that sort of 
thing carried out on many other areas of state-owned land, but those things cou.o 
slowly. It is a matter of education. You can not force the legislatures to go too 
fast in matters of that kind, as we find, but I think witliin a reasonable time we 
shall have a dozen or more areas similar to Itasca Park made out of the present 
state-owned land. 

Now, when it comes to buying lands for state forests, we have a wonderful op- 
portunity there, and I think they have over in Wisconsin and Michigan. So fai- 
we have bouglit very little land. Most of the state forests are part of what were 
grants to the state , but we have a great opportunity to buy cheap land at two or 



86 

three dollars an acre. There are millions of acres of laud suitable only for forest- 
growth. Fig-ures we have collected M'ould warrant us in believing that the poorer, 
rougher, lands in timber will bring just as good a revenue as is derived from the 
second-class agricultural lands throughout the state, and will support just as great 
a population. Moreover, the tourist business is starting in our part of the country, 
and in a short time will he very similar to what you have in the Adirondacks and 
in Maine. ThousanjdB and tens of thousands of automobiles pour into the state 
from Iowa, Missouri and ether states to the south of us. The change in the last 
four or five years is remarkable in this respect. Cars from all over the country 
show that it is going to b(^ wortii wliile to develop the scenic feature. Now, one of" 
the things we arc doing on all cf the state-owned !and is making an effort to t)re- 
serve the beauty of our lakes and lake-shores. I have been able to insert a clause 
in the timber sale contracts so that those shores will be protected. That it seems 
to me is very important if we are going to develop the tourist business. On private 
lands hundreds and hundreds of those beautiful lakes are wrecked every year in the 
legging operations. As I have said on other occasions, our lakes up there are no 
more beautiful in themselves than the mud-lakes out on the prairie. It is simply 
a difference of tlie timber growth around their shores. Considerable planting has 
been done — but in that regard I want to say one word about the raising of nursery- 
stock. We find a good deal of trouble out there in getting Jiurecrjvstock. Wo 
have found real trouble. Our nurserymen are very well organized, and they seem 
to want the state to purchase seedlings to transplant from the commercial nurseries. 
That would be all right if we could get them at a reasonable price, but if we are 
going to embark on a large plan of planting it is necessary to obtain stock at a 
price that ■will warrant us doing the planting, so that we can look forward to a 
profit from the operation. If it is going to cost us one hundrotl dollars an acre to 
buy these little trees and plant them, we can never expect a profit from the oper- 
ation, and we know that we can raise them at a cost of six or eight dollars a tliou- 
sand, or say eight to ten dollars an acre for the plants, and we have been doim; 
that. We have gotten into serious trouble in some instances with the organizeu 
nursery, people, but that is one thing that I suppose every state is mere or less up 
against, the matter of obtaining stock. 

Another thing, we are leasing cottage-sites on these state lands, and derive eoinc 
little revenue, and greatly popularize the state forests in that way. We are mak- 
ing use of the fur crop in Itasca Park. For several years we have been trappin,< 
systematically, particularly beaver, and the revenue goes to the support of the park. 
Last spring we trapped fifty-one beavers, catching only the males ,and sold that 
little bundle of fur for two thousand twenty-five dollars, which helped considerably 
in tlie support of this park and forest. Now, as regards the actual cutting oper- 
ations. We have not gotten very far on the timber sales. With us for the most 
part our sales were made before these lands were turned over to our department, 
and they are still active, and the loggers ai'e still cutting under the old agreement. 
These are expiring from time to time, and the new leases may be made on a differ- 
ent basis ; but for the time being the actual practice of forestry is rather limited. 
We hope to see the time when Minnesota shall be like you people of the state r-i 
Penn.sylvania, where me shall have millions of acres of state forests, actually desig- 
nated as such, and actually luindled on a forestry basis, on a permanent yield plan. 
We have perhaps ten or twelve million acres better situated for that purpose than 
any other, and even that does not express it all, because there are great areas of 
land which are of doubtful value for agriculture. There are also large tracts in 
Minnesota that have come up to second-growth pine, particularly jack pine and 
Norway; and while those stands of timber may be on land that can be profitably 
farmed later on, it would seem a crime to destroy those promising grcwths of timber 



87 

at the present stage of their develoiiment. And so we are making au effort to ha\<' 
them incorporated in what might be called temporary state forests or auxiliary state 
forests, and there is some promise -of success in this regard, because the profit or 
advantage to the state of doing this sort of thing is very evident. 

I am afraid the time is so limited that I should not talk any more at this tini". 
I would be gla:d to answer any questions. (Applause.) 

Lit •'?■•■■ ■ 

Mr. PETERS. I should like to ask Mr. Cox how much this problem would \y 
solved by fire-protection alone. 

Mr. COX. Tliat is pretty hard to say, but we have a fair rei)roduction of pine 
and spruce, hardwood too, particularly poplar and birch ; but there are hundreds of 
thousands of acres where logging was severely done, and where fires followed rapid- 
ly, and whei'e it will be necessary to plant, so that fire-protection is not sufficient iji 
itself, and we shall have to do a groat deal of planting. 

Mr. PETERS. To what extent can natural reproduction be depended upon? 

Mr. COX. Natural reproduction Avill take cari^ of seventy-fi\e per cent at 
least. 

The CHAIRMAN. The next paper will be on "Assistance to Private Timber- 
land Owners," by Mr. R. C. Jones. 

Mr. LOVEJOY. It seems to me that the item of the bill concerning whicli 
Mr. Pinchot spoke, has rather gotten lost in the shuffle. Unless some one will re- 
lieve me of the responsibility., this afternoon, I should! like very much to hear 
enough discussion of the status of that million-dollar appropriation and of this 
bill, to leave us at least fairly clear in our minds as to where the bill is and 
where we are. 

GOVERNOR OL/COTT. I think the gentleman's suggestion is very meritorious. 
Oregon was not on tlve program. Yesterday Mr. Morrill kindly m.entioned Oregon 
in connection with the western states. If there would be no objection, before the 
session closes this afternoon I would like to have a few minutes, I will be very 
brief. We have a very good board of forestry, a non-political organization, five 
members on it, being repi-esentative of different industries of the state. I notice 
on this afternoon's program there were some additions to it in order to fill in, so 
Avith the consent of the( conference I would like a few minutes this afternoon. 
That would give me a better clearance with ray board for spending some nf their 
good money in Pennsylvania. 

The CHAIRMAN. Surely, Governor Olcott, we would be pleased to liear you. 

GOVERNOR OLCOTT. They would know at least that I was on the job. 

On motion duly made and seconded, the conference, at one o'clock P. M.. took a 
recess until two o'clock P. M. 



s» 



Senate Chamber. 
Harrisburg, Pa. Thursday afteruoou, 
December 9, 1920. 



GOVERNOR OLCOTT in the chair. 

The CHAIRMAN. The first puiier on the program is "Plant Quarantine Pro- 
tection," by J. G. Sanders, of the Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture. 

INIr. J. G. SANDERS. Gentlf-men, I feel almost like an interloper on your 
program, and I assure you I only want to occupy a comparatively brief poriod of 
time to discuss a matter which I think is very close to the hearts of most of you ; 
at least I assume by your presence at this meeting that you are interested in 
plant-protection, and deeply so. The matter of plant-quarantine in America and 
its subsequent adoption, and the enforcement of the law, has engendered, as most 
of you know, considerable discussion, particularly on the part of importers of plants. 
Dealers and certain of these nurserymen, and pseudo-nurserymen, who have made 
considerable money in the past by importation of plants from foreign countries have 
had very little regard for the future safety of American agriculture. I want to 
bring to your attention the condition which exists at the present time and ask for 
your cooperation, which I think I already have, for tlie enforcement of quarantine 
No. 37, which was promulgated in 1912 by the federal horticultural board. 

The federal horticultural board is made up of scientific men of the United States 
Department, who unfortunately have other duties in addition to taking care of the 
matters which come up before their board. Tlie attack which is brought about at 
this time is the outgrowth of various and sundry attacks by dealci's and nurserymen, 
which have been ill-timed, and rather poorly considered, and in many cases very 
slight attention has been given to the truth. More recently a board h;is been ap- 
pointed representing the American rose-growers society, the American nurscr^^ncn 
and certain horticultural societies of several states and others interested in horti- 
culture, either professionally or from an amateur standpoint, and these people are 
now getting down to a constructive opposition. I do not know how far they will go. 
I can not see that they will make very much advance in their attempt, but the 
point is this, every man I believe here should do his utmost in his own bailiwick 
to offset any attempt to emasculate the law or limit the federal board's action on 
(Quarantine No. 37. This attempt is under way at the present time, and I believe 
that we only need to consider a few of our major diseases in order to bring to your 
mind the importance of limiting the miscellaneous importation of plants from 
foreign countries in wholesale quantities. 

As state officer, I have been taking the lead somewhat in tliis feature for the past 
eight or nine years. I have made a great many friends and some enemies, but I 
believe that I am on the right side, in fact I know I am on the right side, and 
on that account I am willing to "stand by my guns." 



89 

The ravages of the chestnut-blight, which you all know has been confined to the 
eastern part of the country, is an example of what might be expected if we continue 
to permit the miscellaneous introduction by private companies and private indi- 
viduals, professionalists and trade concerns, of plants from all quarters of the globe. 
The chestnut-blight, possibly you know, was brought in incidentally with a smaii 
sliipment of trees from China, and the ravage it has caused in this region or tna 
east ds well ki^own. The fact that there is apparently no stopping of it until our 
American chestnut is almost wiped out is serious food for thought. The citrus- 
canker is another disease brought from China and established in Florida by nursery-, 
men. This disease was unknown to science and no one would have recognized this 
disease at a port of entry had it been found by an inspector. So with tlie white 
pine blister-rust. 

Now, more recently we have introduced another disease that becomes particularly 
interesting to you, as your interest may be open toward losses of a food product. 
1 will leave here a sample of the potato-wart disease which was found in this state 
only within the last three years, and promises to be a very, very serious pest, one 
which can not be eradicated from the ground by any crop-rotation method. In 
fact we have been unable to sterilize the ground with any known method within any 
reasonably economical cost. Even steaming the ground, the use of formaldehyde 
under eighty pounds steam pressure is not certain to sterilize the soil and pro- 
vent the spread of this disease. 

These are a few of the well-known examples of what can be expected for future 
generations, if we permit unrestricted entry of plants and plant-products from 
foreign countries. Now, this committee has taken action only recently at the meet- 
ing of the American Entomological Society to issue a statement, and I must say 
has paid very little attention to the facts, and it ill becomes men of the standing 
of some of the men of this committee to put out a paper or a statement of this 
kind without trying to determine more carefully what the real facts are in con- 
nection witli the enforcement of Quarantine No. 37 by the federal board. It is 
unfortunate that this committee did not get the facts before they published their 
statement "An Appeal to Ev( ry Friend of American Horticulture," .'n several 
papers and magazines. In this appeal they make the statement that there has been 
built a "Chinese wall around American horticulture." Now, no such condition 
exists at the time, I can assure you of that. Only the other evening I was 
in Washington discussing this whole matter, and they assured me that there 
wag every possible attempt on the part of the federal horticultural board to 
permit the introduction of desirable trees, shrubs and plants of all kinds, but that 
they wished to safeguard these plants by certain restrictions. Now, the nursery- 
men are still permitted to bring into this country bulbs of certain types, but 
an absolute prohibition has been put on the importation of all plants of certain 
other types carrying soil about their roots which we can not possibly inspect at the 
port of entry. It is the hope at least of the federal board, provided congresi 
gives them suflScient funds, to install a larger force of inspectors at the various 
ports of entry, so that less difficulty will be occasioned in the importation of 
plants due to the inspection at the port of entry. When I tell you> that five 
hundred special permits, covering hundreds of thousands of plants, hnve been 
granted to importers of plants during the past twelve months, yon can src that 
no "Chinese wall" is. being built around American horticulture. 

There is another side to the question. I have been laboring for some time with the 
nurserymen at their national conventions, on three or four different o('cas)'"is., 



90 

trying to explain just what this means, and fortunately most of the growers of nurn- 
ory stock appreciate the conditions. 

The Japanese beetle is another pest whieh has come into \h\n country and was 
brought in by one of the large nursery concerns, and it has become established tliat 
it came from Japan in soil on the roots of Iris. Numerous other pests and dis- 
eases have been brought in to the country in the same way. Now it happens that 
the nurserymen who introduced this pest are the people who have been fighting tlie 
federnl board most violently. They have been using facts rather carelessly in 
connection with their criticisms of the work of the federal board and have been 
attacking it without just (cause. I want to read you a brief statement from 
the "National Nurseryman." which gives yon a little more light on the attitude of 
the nurserymen : 

"Here are some of the lo.sses to American farmers in the United States in one year 
by plant diseases wliich might have been prevented if known control-measures had 
been immediately applied: Wheat, 112.(K)().(K)0 bushels; oats, {50,000,000 bushels: 
com, 80,000,000 bushels; iK)tatoes, 50,()00;0(X> bushels; sweet potatoes, 40,000,00 
bushels (two-^ths of the total crop); tomatoes, . 185,0<X> tons; cotton, 850,000 
bales; peaches, 5,000,000 bushels; apples, 16,000,000 bushels. The figures were 
compiled for the year 1919 by the Plant Disease Survey of the Bureau of Plant In- 
dustry, United States Department of Agriculture. 

'"In compiling the above the Bureau of Plant Industry has been ))lnying the 
children'.-* game of supposing. 

"Wliy not play the game to a fini.^h and keep on supposing wliat would happen if 

the 'might have been' really liappened. 

* 

"Without disease and crop-failure present plantings would produce more than 
could be harvested, transported or used. Farming and gardening would soon be a 
lost art, no skill and little labor would be i-equired to produce all the crops necessary. 

"We might as well keep on supposing there would be no disease among animals and 
incidentally no disease or death among human beings if proper control measures 
were used. Tliei game ends here as the imagination gives out." 

I fe(^l that you have some \ery important papers on your program, and although 
1 could talk at considerable length on .some of these matters, yet I believe I can 
reaflilv close by asking of you the support of your different states for the wotk of 
the federal hoi'ticultural board in the enforcement of quarantine No. 37, which I 
believe is unassailable. The method adopted by the board may be open to criticism 
that you might expect from any new organization in putting the quarantine laws and - 
regulations into force, and under the existing conditions I ask your serious support 
for this federal quarantine No. 'M and any regulations that may h^ promulgateid 
under it. 

Just a word more on this white-pine blister-rust. We have had some texpericnce 
in this -state, fortunately we have been able in Pennsylvania to prevent the spread 
of this disease, and during the past two years no appearance of it has been dis- 
covered, and that only by \ery aggressive action. The big question for us now is 
to prevent it entering into the western states, Dakota. Michigan, Minnesota, and 
that region. mikI to prevent by all means possible the introduction of this disease 



91 

iuto the westei'n live- lea ted pine region. If it gues into tliat eounti-y there is iiu 
doubt but that enormous loss would occur. 

If there are any questions that occur to yx)u on this disease I should be very glad 
to reply to them if I can. Regarding quarantine No. 37 I do feel, however, that the 
federal board should have the heartiest support of you people interested in forestry, 
nui-sery-work arid nursery propagation. The trees in this country, they not only 
are guarding your interests, but the interest of tlie farmers. 

Mr. LOVEJOY. May I inquipr^, Mr. Sanders, whether tliere is any technical op- 
position ; opposition from technical men, to this order? 

Mr. SANDERS. On tJie part of te<:-hnically trained men, very little indeed. We 
think the most serious opposition comes from the State Horticulturist of Illinois, 
but 1 really think we have enlightened^him on just what this quarantine means so 
that he will probably change Ms opinion somewhat. I hate to take any more of 
iour time, but the point is this; the strongest opposition to this quarantine comes 
from a great many of those who have been accustomed heretofore to get some <»er- 
liian, English or Scotch catiilogues and seeing some new varieties that they do not 
have in theii' garden, tliey want to introduce them; and when thej- find they are 
unable te bring in these varieties to add to their collection their ire is immediately 
aroused. This group have gatliered up a great dteal of opposition, but the technically 
trained men are able to see tlie advantage of a quarantine of this character ; but, 
of course, the importers wiho have made cons'derablf sums of money are very "p( ev- 
ish" over the whole situation. 

Mr. COX. Mr. Chairman, I would like^ to offer at this time a resolution before 
any of the members have to catch trains. 

Resolved, That the state foresters in conference do hereby express their de^ p 
appreciation of the courtjosies and privileges extentHed to them in Harrisburg by the 
I'ennsylvania Department of Forestry, by the individual members thereof, and in 
l-articular to Mr. Piiiehot, whom we wish to thank for a repetition of his old-time 
hospitality. 

Mr. GASKILL. I do not want to run any one else out, but I hope I may haxe 
the privilege of seconding that resolution. The foresters are pretty well accustomed to 
being well entertained in their going about in the country. They have had .some 
experience of the hospitality accorded them by a good many individuals, but I tliink 
1 can say A\Tthout much overstating the fact that Mr. Pinchot and his organization 
have laid themselves out here in such fashion that we can joyfully and whole-heart- 
edly say you have done yourselves, and us proud and we are very grateful to you. 

Tlie resolution was unanimously adopted. 

The CHAIRMAN. The next paper on the program is "Keeping Idle Forest Land* 
I'.usy," by Prof. P. S. Lo\ejoy, of the University of Michigan. 

Prof. P. S. LOVEJOY. Mr. Chairman, I have taken the liberty of changing 
the title a little, so as to make it read, "Making the idle cut-over lands get busy," 

In a theoretical way, the problem of getting the cutovers to Avork is absurdly 
•imple. First, you designate tliose areas which will shortly be ii<«ded for u«e« 



92 

others tlian timber-produiCtiou , then you stop the fires, tliereby saving whatever 
there may be left of the original forest and permitting volunteer growth. Later, as 
convenient, you, fill in tlie holes by planting, proceed to your thinnings, and when 
things are nicely settled, put in your spare time drawing curves rexising the work- 
ing-plan, and complaining over the professional and personal shortcomings of tlie 
office over yours. 

All very simple, as far as the technical end goes; get your land, stop the fires, 
take what natural growth you can get and supplement it artificially as fast as 
praeticnble. But it is not as simple as all that — is not simple at all, as things look 
from 1920. 

As to matters ofi artificial reproduction, there is no longer any possible question. 

Having gotten pretty much over our German-made notions about Scotch pine and 
Norway spruce and European larch, and ha,ving been cured «»f our short-cut to glory 
\ ia catalpa and locust, we are about ready to get down to biisiness and to thank our 
gods for jack pine and popple, loblolly and red gum, white fir andl birch. We have 
Siroadcasted and seed-spotted and grub-hoed and fussed with 3 — 2 and 1 — stock, 
have made quite a lot of — 0, and now know about all we really need to know in 
s)rder to pick up and go at any speed. Suitable planting stock? By the tens of mil- 
.ious or billions — a few months after anybody orders it. Planting meth'ods? Spud r.r 
mattock or plow or spade — and so as to insure a decent survival and adequate catch 
with all the certainty with which a farmer sows clover — more certainty than that. 
Subsequent growth? Not a question but that it will be satisfactory; the basal area 
computations can wait. 

As to the quantity, quality and usefulness of the volunteer growth wiiich will 
follow automatically upon the suppression of the fires, we are, I think, rather shy, 
both in facts and in faith. It is my very strong impression that we have been over- 
looking a very big bet here. Research upon elastic limits and the effect of polariz- 
ed molasses upon the xylotomous tissue of Bunkobus tittj'wampus we have not lack- 
ed. As to just what happens when fires are kept out of cut-over land I can find 
little w'orthy information and still less technical interest. We are even told to 
hush-hush on that subject, for fear legislatures will get the notion that nursery-work 
is superfluous, and that clean-cut and plant is the high Eui-opean hunch. There 
will be exceptions, of course, but my own feeling is that the stopping of the fires wiJl 
in the majority of cases insure a forest which will prove very decently satisfactory 
and which will give more usable forest per dollar of fire-money than will a hundred 
dollars of planting-money. It is certain, of course, that better forests will be made 
to follow the early volunteers and that nursery-work and planting can contribute to 
this very largely. 

If then, it may be assumed as established that we have developed an easily work- 
able technique for big-scala forest-planting, and if it is admitted that the volunteer 
forests will be much better than merely worth saving from fire, we are brought 
back to the consideration of stopping fires. How about that? Have we satisfied 
ourselves that we can stop fires? What do we mean by that? Not that we plan to 
prevent fires from starting, for we know they will start. Not that we do not ex- 
pect some big and costly fires, even after we get things fixed up to suit us, for w e 
shall expect some bad fires. Perhaps we mean that en the average fire-losses are to 
be reduced to a negligible minimum — to such a small fraction of loss that it can be 
disregarded. How much of a loss is that, in per cent of acres per year and por 
rotation? 



93 

Wliat is ;i(.lcquate forest-fire protection? If but one per cent of the area prcteot- 
ed is burned over in an average year, will that be considered pretty good work? 
That would be equivalent to burning over one hundred per cent of the area ' every 
one. hundred years. To burn over one acre in every thousand would amount to 
burning over ten per cent of the area in one hundred years. We have been taught 
forests may not be expected to pay out more than three or five per cent, net, per 
year. If the forest suffers a ten per cent loss from fire, each rotation, where then 
would the net returns be? Can anyone shew a single solid township of cut-over 
country subject to normal fire-hazards, where fire losses have actually been kept 
down to twenty-three, acres a year for ten years, or five years? What about this 
"stopping-fire" talk which we all get off so glibly? 

In Michigan, if anywhere, there should be some experience and judgment concern- 
ing fire in the cut-over country. But an official report from the United States 
forest service to the responsible state officers last year said that a cent an acre 
should give "adequate" protection. At the same time one professor of forestry was 
saying that five cents would be required, and another professor was saying that the 
job ceuld hardly be done for less than ton. Meanwhile a forester who had had 
years of experience in operatijig a big private fire-protection association was saying 
that, for three cents, he could reduce fire-losses to that degree justified by the value 
of the property protected. 

The national forest in the jack-pine plains of Michigan was then charging up five 
cents an acre for fire-protection and rather crediting itself with intensive work. 
But one day the wind blew in the usual "unprecedented" manner while the country 
waa in the usual "abnormally desicated condition," and the fire went to Silvei 
Creek or thereabouts in the customary manner, burning over a per cent of the area 
protected which would be too sad to quote. During all this time the state forester, 
who alone of the entire outfit could show a chunk of cut-over sections where fire had 
actually been kept out for twenty years — new fires running up to the fire-lines from 
outside, year after year, and being stopped at those lines — he was making no state- 
ments whatever as to the practicability of stopping fires or as to the cost of stoppin,| 
fires. But, having already one big tractor to puU stumps and clear fire-lines, he 
proceeded to get another tractor to clear fire-lines and to keep those lines clean. 



I am well aware that the American forester can exhibit a greater accomplishment 
per dollar of fire-money expended than anybody in the world. I am willing to as- 
sume that the machinery for fire-pre\ention and control has nearly all been invented 
and tested out. I have seen fire fought iu a good many states and under many 
conditions. I have no doubt but that it can be done and I have a full iconviction 
that it must be done, but, with the exception of a little string of sections on the 
Higgins Lake state forest of Michigan, I have never seen a place where fire has 
been actually, deliberately and artificially kept out cf the cut-over country for so 
long as ten years. Those sections have fire-linos around every forty-acre square, 
those fire-lines are freshcnd twice a year, a fire-tower overlooks the area in great de- 
tail, there are many roads, a real fire-fighter is custodian and he has a crew of men 
with automobiles constantly available. 

Considering everything, is it appropriate that we should be so smug and so glib 
about stopping fires on the cut-over lands? Have we told the full truth about the 
costs and difficulties of that thing? Have we made serious or adequate attempt 
to determine the essential facts and practicabilities? Do we know as much about 



94 



ibe effect of Hi'*; ou soil aud forests as we do about the effect of seed extracliiit{ 
house beat or the \iability of tree-seed collected from altitudes A, B and C, and froii 
domiuant, co-dominant and sub-dominant specimens of juvenile, mature and decadent 
condition V 

We arc inclined to bemoan the difficulty of developing an intelligent cooperation 
in fire-work from settlers, hunters and fishermen, not to mention railroad officials 
and business men. We allege that stopping the fires would vastly improve tho 
stocking of game and fisli, would lead to a great expansion in the recreational values 
of the cut-overs, would conserve the scant organic content of forest-soils, would 
insure forest-products for the wood-using industries, and so forth. But where is 
the forester who is in a position to substantiate these statements in an orderly 
and con\incing wayV A university foresti-y department undertakes to show a 
relation between ft rests and wild life and dredges around in the bottom of a lake 
for proof, instead of taking a census of tlie animal life in a typically unburned 
aud in a typically cut and burned area. 

A high official of the United States bureau of soils informs an iullueutial citizen 
that the damage done to soils by fire is commonly exaggerated, and that the organic 
deposit of the forests typical of tlie north lake states is deleterious to both soil 
and forests, and its removal — as by fire — will benefit both soil and forests — and tho 
United States forest service is not in a position to demonstrate the contrary. A 
professor comhicts an experiment showing certain agricultural advantages to be 
possible by burning over peat-lands and the state forester spends a summer fighting 
peat-fires. 

In another state an irate citizen writes to his paper claiming that the stopping 
of fires in the young second-growth is vastly more important than planting wind- 
breaks and the like, and the presumably responsible officers hunt around to find 
somebody to bawl out the offending citizen for his dangerous contentions. 

My feeling is that foresters ha\e done little more than flutter around the subject 
of cut-over country fires. This may cnce have been expedient, but is it expedient 
from now on? The chief of the forest senice is about to ask congress for & 
million dollars as a bait to catch fire activities in a score of states. The state 
forester cf Pennsylvania proposes to ask his legislature for a million dollars for liis 
state alone. There is no forester who will doubt but that it will take that much 
or more to stop the fires in Pennsylvania, and equal sums in a dozen other states. 
There is no forester worthy of the name who doubts that such fluids so expended 
would be the best sort of investments. But, sa've for that one man, where is th^ 
forester who has been tolling the full truth about fire-control and its cost in iIk 
cut-overs and acting according to his convictions? 

it is a tremendous iinderlaking, gentlemen, but one which will not be advanced 
until we quit our pussyfooting. If in its accomplishment tender and timid foresters 
must be replaced by bolder and hardier men, foresters or otliei"wise, then the mon 
reason for starting soon. The problem of getting the cut-overs to work starts wilii 
better fire-protection, is conditioned upon more fire-protection, and lingers as long 
an fire-protection is wanting. 

Whatever the local technique best adapted to the job, it will involve great sums 
of money and a very large personnel of fire-trained men. We shall continue to 
le«rn that part of our business by fighting fires. We shall get a chance to fi;;ht 



95 

fires and thereby learn this business only as we are able to convince the public 
that stopping fires is at once practicable and worth the cost. It is my thought that 
we have not yet succeeded in either; that wc have not yet properly demonstrated 
that stopping the fires is really practicable or that it is worth the costs. If I am 
wrong in this, someone ■\\dll certainly contradict me directly and will arise with 
convincing argument and object-lessons, pointing out instances where cut over country 
fires have long been kept under control, and pointing out the exact relations between 
the cost of the fire-work and the increase in values arising out of the protection. 

I km w, of course, that these things are subject to demonstration; my point 
is that the full demonstration is now lacking, and being lacking, it is reasonable 
to expect a considerable measure of skepticism and hesitation on the part of the 
public, legislatures and congress. That lack requires remedy in the very near fut- 
ure. 

So much for artificial restocking, for volunteer growth and for fire. There remains 
the matter of getting the land. This, of course, is the big item — ^the item most 
generally lacking and, perhaps, the item in which we have bungled most greviously. 
We can not plant, can not gi'ow or tend volunteer forests or keep fires out of the 
cut-overs until and unless we have some manner of jurisdiction over the lands — the 
eutover and burned-over lands, the lands now lying idle, loafing or devastated by ax 
and fire- — and by the hundreds of millions of acres, and in twenty states. 

As in the case of fire, it is my feeling that in their procedure foresters have 
very often been seriously at fault in all this — that we have failed to apprehend the 
nature of the obstructions which have confronted us — ^that we have not used all 
the tools ready to our hand or have bungled and fumbled in their using. 

Take the case of Winconsin as the most perfect example of this. After years of 
leadership and uniformly favorable legislation which appropriated funds and gave 
authority for the direct acquisition and consolidation by the state of cut-over land, 
for state forests, and generous authority concerning fire and planting, there developed 
a sudden and violent opposition to the whole scheme. Entire county boards came 
dow^n to the capital, breathing fire, a case is forced to the supreme Jcourt of the 
state and the court invalidates the whole forest program, holding it to be uncon- 
stitutional. Now, how could .such a thing happen? 

The nubbin of the controversy hinged in this; the- state 1'orester's plnns dis- 
regarded the point of view of the citizens living within the areas designated for con- 
solidatiosi into state forests. The state forester, following the early precedents 
of the national program, and with too single an eye to easy administration, phnuied 
to acquire about a million acres lying in a nicely rectangular solid chunk. Within 
this area were streaks and patches of loams and clays more or less well suited for 
ngriculture and already supporting more or less in the way of farming setth'ments. 

In Wisconsin, after years of labor and concentration, th(-y had develoited an 
unusually clear and workable policy of agricultural development. The state forester 
did not understand its potency, allowed himself to appear as opposed to it — and was 
smash(?d, along with his forest-program. It was another case of the "June eleventh" 
troubles of the national forests, only bigger and more acute. 

While the state forester was traveling the southern counties of the state with 
a set of lectures and lantern-slides showing endless devastation caused by fires, the 
state director of immigration was also traveling with a set of slides showing the 



96 

developmeut of stump and brush-fields into prosperous farms. Neither cfl5cijil 
justly appraised the intents and proprieties of the other's work. When it came to 
a show-down, the established agricultural idea won hands-down, and forestry in 
Wisconsin is to-day hiding out like a moonshiner with the revenuers on his trail. 

Other states than this could be named in which the dominance of the agricultural 
idea has buffaloed and suppressed the forest idea even to a point where state forest 
ofKcers quote experiment-station bulletins, having to do with lime and sweet clove.* 
and yield of butter-fat per acre of silos, with more ease and conviction than they 
speak of second-growtli oak or the market possibilities of hickory — and this, pei'haps, 
in a state having millions of acres of idle land, punctured with deserted farms and 
abandoned farmers. 

Have we, as foresters, soberly canvassed this situation and made intelligert 
plans for meeting it? Has any forester or forestry organization ever attempted to 
assemble convincing evidence to demonstrate the reasonable limits to whick the 
agricultural development of given cut-over areas can go within given time? Has 
anyone urged effectively that the greatest possible agricultural development of the 
cut-overs can only be achieved by making the whole cut-over area continuously 
productive? Scattered through the low-grade lands are patches and streakes of 
good land like peninsulas and islands in an ocean. To work these streaks and 
patches by farming is usually difficult or unprofitable, not by reason of soil or 
climate, but because of their geography and the economic conditions which their 
geography entails. When surrounded with new forests, of the sort we will have 
from now on, the forest areas would require and absorb all the surplus labor of 
the farms, the coming of permanent wood-working industries would create a local 
market for agricultural products, and farm would supplement and work with forest 
as, in the west, the ranch supplements and works with the range. Is the picture 
of all that plain and clear before our eyes? Have we ever tried to present that idea 
and ideal before the altars of the agricultural priests? Have we never formulated 
for ourselves or explained to the back- woods citizens hov/ the new forests will 
differ from the old; that the new forests will be protected and tended and will 
grow faster and more per acre in less time than the old wild forests? That the new 
forests will not be jungles left undisturbed for a century or so, bottled in and 
frozen up, but, instead, will be worked and working things, intimately and pro- 
fitably associated with the farms and farm-towns which will be located in and 
through them? Have we explained and expatiated upon the effect which a great 
and growing forest-cover will have upon game and fish and tourist traffic, and how 
this will prosper the forest-region communities? Have we sold that idea to the 
sportsmen and tourists? 

My point is this: Too often we have assumed that forests and forestry justified 
themselves. Too often we have attempted to force an unint(!lligiblc plan down the 
throats of communities desperately trying to keep their economic footing by old- 
line agriculture. Too often we have thought in terms of big, solid chunks of land 
within our jurisdiction. Too often we have tried to further our scliemes by whole- 
sale condemnation of the agricultural possibilities of the cut-overs. In doing these 
things we have gone counter to all American precedent and the prevailing doctrines 
of the country. No economic notion is more firmly rooted in America than tlio 
idea that anything is a good thing which furthers agricultural development. To 
buck that notion is not only futile — it is bone-headed. 

But this is dissertation. The cut-over lands are in private ownership. The 
cut-over lands are held by the tens of millions of acres by a handful of lumbermen 



97 

and ex-lumbermen who have no plans for tUsse holdings save a vague hope that 
they can unload ahead of compounding taxes ajid interest. That hcpe is as vain as 
it is vague. Within a few years, as things are going, great areas of cut-over Ian J 
are due to be confiscated by taxes and interest. Perhaps that will result in whoir- 
sale tax-delinquency and reversion to the states. If so, the tax-reverted lands will 
come back in irregular and isolated tracts unfit for administration and requiring 
endless trading and consolidation and delay before they can be properly protecttui 
or managed. Will that be a good thing for us or for the owners or for the states? 

The public was a party to the great ecouomic mistake \\Iiich passed the owner- 
ship of these lands into private liands. It seems to me that it will be poor economics 
und poor business to force great areas into bankruptcy. On the other hand, where 
*'►»« big and little speculators have incurred unreasonable expenses, they can not 
pxoect the public to guarantee them their interest or profits. A way out, as I see 
it, is through state and national acquisition under an extension of the Week's law 
plan, perhaps coupled with an increase in local tax rates or assessments so as to 
hurry the proceedings. 

Theoretically, it might be well to attempt a soil and economic survey which 
would appraise and classify the lands, and on the basis of such a survey, to pro- . 
ceed with the working out of policies and plans for agricultural and forest and 
recreational uses. Actually, I apprehend, that would be a dangerous and difiicult 
procedure, for too great a responsibility would be placed upon the surveyors aad 
too much local and political friction would probably develop. It would be better 
to allow the basic economics of the situation freer play. By putting even slightly 
more tax-pressure on the owners of idle cut-over land and at the same time giving 
a chance for their relief, the owners themiselves could be depended upon to classify 
their holdings with considerable accuracy and with a minimum of debate and 
friction. It may well be that the owners will often see their way to growing tim- 
ber on their own lands if it comes to such a show-down between timber crops or 
nothing. 

But I do not mean to intimate that I would do away with soil, on soil and 
economic surveys. If not imperative, they are at least tremendously valuable. Such 
a soil reconnaissance as that of Wisconsin, for instance, immediately blocks out 
the large areas of soils of different character, defines with much accuracy tho 
practicable development to be anticipated, and prevents the loose assumptions and 
wild talk so generally met when cut-over-land possibilities are under discussion. 

No mere. soil survey, however, is enough. There should be an economic survey 
also, which will report on such items as ownership, cover, cost of clearing, trans-^ 
portation, markets, past history and probably availability for given uses. This 
economic and soil survey should do for the cut-over counti'y, what the forest survey 
does for the forest ; should furnish the base data for the formulation of a real 
working-plan, section by section, township by townsliii), county by county. We 
are closer'to that than we may be aware, I think, INIichigan Uiws now provide for 
such work. 

In the really mountainous counti-y such surveys are, perhaps, ' less needed, sinc(> 
there the line between agricultural and non-agricultural lands is easily fixed, as 
a rule. But on the basis of acreage the mountain areas of the cut-overs are of 
less importance than the relativi':'ly level areas of the coastal plains, the lake states 
and of the southern pineries. In these regions, surveys of the sort described 
•eem to me to offer the cheapest, quickest and surest assistance in arriving a:.t a 
real understanding of the situation, and such an understanding as will force 
prompt consideration and action with a minimuno of diffioulty. But if such surveys 



98 

are considrred or undertaken, foresters will need to insure themselves of represtin- 
tation and of adequate consideration for their point of view. Soil-surveyors are fe-r 
in number and inclined to regard very highly the sufficiency of their priva(e 
tcchTiiqno, and the agronomic data Avhich they characteristically append to their field- 
records and reports has lo do almost exclusively with affairs of orthodox agricul- 
ture. With them, as with tlieir brothers of the agricultural colleges and experim<uit 
stations, forests as crops, appear as mere academic conceptions, not reasonable 
probabilities save for the utterly waste and hopeless lands. Tliey are usually 
willing that the forester should some time scavenge after them when the soy-bean 
and the frost-proof peannt fails, but not before. We have been too modest or too 
timid. But lumber is now quoted by the board-foot instead of the thousand feet, 
and pulp is quoted by the pound rather than the ton. 

If the solution of the cut-over-land problems has yet to be found, we, as forester«, 
are very largely to blame. We have not always played our hand with courage or 
with skill. It is time to shake things up and get going to the tune of "Every aca 
working all the time." 

Mr. PINCnOT. I have been very much impressed by this paper of Professor 
Lovejoy's, particularly that part which relates to fii'e as correlated with the dis- 
cussion we had on fire this morning. Would it be in order at this time to move 
that the president of the Society of State Foresters be requested to appoint a 
committee of three to report to the next meeting of the association on the question 
of standards of fire-protection? My intention is to make that as wide a subject 
as it is possible to cover. 

Mr. GASKILL. I think it altogether admirable that the nationid organization 
or association should follow the precepts laid down. I second the resolution. 

The resolution was unanimously agreed to. 

Mr. MORRILL. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask if there have been arrange- 
ments made whereby the papers which have been read may be multigraphed or 
mimeographed and the members to receive copies ; if such arrangements have been 
made, or can they be made? 

Mr. PINCHOT. May I answer that question, so far as I can? It is my hop; 
that it will be possible for the Pennsylvania Department of Forestry to print the 
proceedings of this conference and supply copies to all of the members. 

The CHAIRMAN. That completes, I believe, the rtegular scheduled program. 

Mr. PINCHOT will you kindly take the chair? 

Mr. PINCHOT in the chair. 

GOVERNOR OLCOTT. Mr Chairman and gentlemen, I spoke briefly yesterday 
about the airplane and fire-service that the Government has given the states of 
California and Oregon, and in that connection I want to briefly state that I hav' 
before me a little magazine published in Now York, called "The Old Colony Club." 
They asked us for a typically Oregon story a couple of months ago, in response to 
which this was prepared. It deals largely -with the airplane fire-service in Oregon. 
I will read it to you. 



99 

"While the smoke of industry .year after year hangs in denser and still densfi 
clouds over the cities of Oregon, and while her agricultural resources have grown to 
proportions so vast as to be unbelievable, even to those who first saw and pioneered 
tlie way for those industries, we claim an intense pride in two of our greatest 
assets, our timber and our scenery. 

"These assets are inseparably intertwined. Our lakes, our waterfalls, our river-?, 
our majestic mountains and our tortuous glens of perpetual green would become 
wastes, inhospitable in their barren bleakness, but for the stands of fir, of pine, of 
spruce and of cedar and hemlock, which crown them with the glory of God. 

"To give to the world her fair share of our timber, cut into the sizes and length.^ 
which will take it into the channels of commerce and trade, to build our ships, 
lo house our peoples and to be converted by the hand of man into the million utiui- 
tarian uses to which lumber may be put, is one great share of our problem. For 
Oregon has within her vast boundaries one-fifth of the standing merchantable 
timber left in the United States today. More and more the world is looking to the 
mountainsides of Oregon for the lumber to ship to the nations bordering on the seven 
seas, and it is the duty of Oregon to use this birthright in the manner 'that will 
bring the greatest good to this nation and to the peoples of the world. 

"The other magnificent share of the problem confronting us is to retain in the 
fullest splendor possible the God-given wonders of Nature, our scenic beauties which 
challenge the Alps and look down with scorn upon many of the boasted wonders of 
the old world. 

"But too few years ago the people of our state began to awaken to a reaJizing 
sense of her wonderful endowments. But we are awake now, and from every county, 
city and hamlet comes the cry to save what we have ere it passes away from u« 
forever. 

"The forests have two deadly enemies. One is fire and the other the destroying 
hand of man. By means of the latest of naan's own devices, a device that gives 
us the wings, and the speed, and the eye of the bird, man has turned to his own usa 
the airplane to combat the ancient enemy of the forest, the ravaging fire. To 
protect the forest against its other enemy man is beginning to look into his own 
luart and be afraid of tlie ravages which he himself has wrought. Between the 
two we have hope to save for trade and commerce the lumber to which it is entitled, 
and sufficient of the forests and the witching greenery with which tliey are braided 
lo preserve our scenic marvels, and to leave here forever in the heart of the Pacific 
Northwest a paradise for tourists and sport.tmen from every land and clime. 

"To revert to the airplane. The aerial forest-patrol is an unqualified success. 
Despite obstacles difficult to overcome, such obstacles as are always confronting 
untried ventures, the aerial forest-patrol has proved itself a success and a boon to 
those who have watched millions of dollars' worth of timber evaporate into smoke- 
wreaths. 

"The patrol was inaugurated in 1919 when eight planes were sent into Oregon 
from the army service in California. Here I wish, to express my appreciation to 
Col. H. H. Arnold, commander of the air service for the western department of 
the army, and Lieutenant-Colonel Watson, one of his ablest aides, who were directly 
responsible for sending these planes into the state, after I had made an air trip from 
I'ortland to Sacramento and San Francisco with Lieutenant-Colonel Watson, to 
discuss with Colonel Arnold the feasibility and possibility of establishing an aerial- 



100 

liatrol ill Oreuon. The iihuies that caino wero miiinied by as line a body oi young 
aviators as ceuld be found in the service, and millions of feet of timber are today 
standing unscathed in Oregon as a monument to the skilful alertness of these pOots 
\vho braved every danger known to aerial science to pioneer the way for what will 
I'M-ntnally be the most efficicnit form of patrol system known to man. 

"Despite the wonderful success they had, it was only after a bitter and prolonged 
struggle that we could secure for 1920 a complement of planes suitable for patrol- 
work. Again Colonel Arnold, uudyingly devoted to the belief in his cause, came 
(() the front with the planes that ha\e meant another wonderful season for the 
forests of the state. While final reports and figures are not yet available for the 
season's work, the ten planes that were sent here covered the forests in many 
sections like blankets. In far-off places and in remote canyons and recesses of the 
mountains they spied the tiny puffs of smoke that meant quick ruin and destruction 
lo vast areas of timber unless its fires were curbed quickly and effectually. Many 
of these incipient fires were beyond the eyes and the districts of the regular patrol- 
men, but the planes brought quick response. Enormous areas of forest may be 
patrolled in a single day by a solitary aviator; areas wJiich would require the 
services of many men o\er widely distributed sections without the aid of the planes. 

These airships operated at tlie expense of the government forest service, al- 
thougli tlie state stood ready to share in the burdlen if demanded. 

"The planes are saving the forests to industry, and we are looking to the luarls 
of our people to save for us and our children and our children's children the 
magnificent beauties which we have always con.sidcred as our right. 

"Like the prodigal wlio inherits a fortune and spends it giddily and gaily in the 
folly of his belief that it will last forever, we have been squand(>ring, without heed 
or thought of the future, the greatest inheritance that can be given to mankind. 
We have been squandering the birthright given us by the Creator himself, but 
through word which has come to me from people all over the state, I know that we 
are seeing the folly of our prodigal ways and will call a halt before our bank ac- 
count with Nature is closed. 

"Tliere is something selfish behind this with all of us. It is not altogether a 
truism, it is not altogether sentiment. We have millions of dollars worth of scenery 
within our borders to sell to the beauty-loving people from every state and nation. 
We are spending millions of dollars on a hand-surfaced highway system, which, whea 
finished,- we hope will surpass that of iniy state in the Unior.;. These hard-surfaced 
highways will penetrate tlie heart of our scenic centers and take the motorist 
leisurely on his way through Avonders wliicli no painter with brush or words caa 
portray. . » • j.; 



"In our efforts to curb tiu^ destruction of our forest beauties we are finding the 
cooperation of the timberman as well as of the private citizen. We hope to enact 
laws, or in some manner meet the emergency, so that those who, hold private 
rights in property will not lose thereby. The move is not one of socialism to give 
to the state the property which, by the right of our constitution and laws, belongs 
to the citizens of our commonwealth and nation. It is a move to preserve, to cherish 
and to keep close to our hearts that beauty in t];e environs of which God Almighty 
wislied his people to live. 



101 

"We regret that in the years gone by the puljlic was net alivf Ui I lie dc.slrncti.i 
and waste which were being wrought around them. Nature has been so lavish with 
her favor« here that they seemed an unending blessing. 

"liut if the law and public opinion and tiie hearts of our peoid(! ean aeoomidi.sh 
it, we will preserve for all time and all generations enough of th(.' beauty remaining 
so that Oregon will continue what Nature intended her to bo — a Mecca for the 
tourist and an Eden for those so fortunate as to reside within ht>v state lines." 

After concluding the reading of the magazine article Governor Olcott read the 
folJowing paper dealing with forestry questions, particularly as to the forestry 
policy in Oregon : 

"Being the most heavily forested state in the Union, Oregon must each yi-ar take 
greater interest in matters affecting fori'st-industry. The prosperity of its (•itizen'- 
Ib more than elsewhere closely linked with forest-resources and forest-industry. Our 
prominence among forested states also required recognition that tin' ri'st of the 
country is interested in the management of our forest-resources. 

"Oregon contains about one-fiflli of llie nation's timber-supply. It is now third 
and will soon be fii'st among lumb'ji'-jtrodneing states. The annual lumber pay-roll 
is already about fifty million dollars. (Jliniatr; and species arc favorable to rajiid 
forest-growth. We have to consider not only tlie use ami ijrotection of a great 
existing resource, but best future use of an increasing area of land from wJiieh 
timber is being removed. 

"These considerations have not been neglected. More money is s)»ent for foresi- 
))rotection in Oi'egon than in any other state. Last year the sum expend(;d out- 
side national forests was approximately three hundred sixty-two thousand dolhirs, 
which included a far greater amount for fighting fires than should be spent i'ov tliLs 
purpose. All merchantable timber and most re-stocking lands are covered by (.'ooiter- 
ative patrols supported mainly by timber-owners but al.so by state and fcd<!ral 
goveinrnent. Oregon pioneered the way in compulsory protective legislation, 

compelling by law all owners to protect land having fore.st-fire hazard, whetlei' 
commercially timbered or not. It has equally rigid l.-iws compelling sla.sh-dis[)Osal, 
abatement ef fire-nuisance and control of fire. Unfortunately at an early date we 
disposed of most of our timbered school-land. We now recognize this as a mistake 
and are seeking to re-establish state forests. We are keenly alive lo the importance 
of forest-growing as well as forest-use, but with over half onr land area untaxable 
being in national forests, Indian reservations and unajipropriated public domjiin 
the raising of revenue for state needs is more difficult than i:i many eastern states. 

"Luckily natural reijroduction is usually swift and ccjrtain with us if protection 
is given. Many of the technical difficulties existing elsewhere do not trouble us 
greatly, and we are making good headway toward giving the protection. 

It IS figured, however, that to adequately protect the twelve million acres our- 
side national forests will require an annual expenditure of some three hundre i 
forty thousand dollars, and that since much of this area is not in merchantable 
timber, government and state must bear a fair share of the expense. By doing this 
we propo.se too that the state and government have a decided voice in the program 
to be carried out, and we propose too that the bulk of this fund be expended in a 
manner to prevent need for fighting large fires. • 



102 

"Oregon early adopted the belief that in all forest matters the leading intereatrf, 
private and public, must be harmonized and jointly represented in the framing and 
execution of policies. The state ne^ ds tlieir interest, technical competence and local 
familiarity. Our sueooss in this has produced firm conviction that it is the correct 
principle to underlie all state, federiU and private relatiou.s in forest matters. It 
is no longer theory that in no other way can rights and responsibilities be succesa- 
fuUy adjusted and general public support assured. We have tried out the principle 
wliile others have been questioning whether or not it would work. 

"Ten years ago a state board of forestry was created with the governor as chair- 
man and the head of the state forest school as a statutory member. Believing in 
the representative principle, our state provides that the otlier five members be nom- 
inated by the lumber interests, timber interests, agricultural and grazing interests 
and federal forest ser\dce. This board has for ten years worked in perfect harmony. 
Bach interest has been fair and willing to yield to the majority, while at the same 
time contributing ser\nces which the state could not have secured for a money con- 
sideration. The representatives of forest industry and consumers have been no les.'J 
public-spirited than government and state officials, and the result is the progressive 
legislation I have briefly mentioned and a spirit wliich I am convinced will meet 
new problems equally well as they develop. 

"It was not until the passage of our present forest cede in 1911 tiint forest mat- 
ters in Oregon were given much consideration, speaking in terms of actual accom- 
plishment. Not until this time were funds made available to employ a state forester 
and fire-wardens. Since 1011 progress has been rapid even though appropriations 
are far from adequate. However, the timber-owners have cooperated with the state 
and made possible a protection system which we feel is not surpassed in excellence 
by any state in the Union. 

"Our state board recently adopted a forest-policy with a view to having an even 
more definite program to follow and also to outline a course for public education 
in forest matters. Time will probably not permit presenting this policy for your 
consideration. It advocates state foi'ests, assistance to farmers and timber land 
owners in management of their pi-operties, tax reform, land classification, protec- 
tion of all potential forest-landi and a campaign of education looking to better 
public understanding of our forest problems. 

"In conclusion I wish to state that we advocate the same constructive coopei'- 
ation in national forest-policy which has proven so successful in state affairs. Just 
as we have been able to assist, correlate and promote the efforts of other agencies 
without denying their independence or alienating their support, so we believe tho 
government should have a program equally dt^gigned to bring cut the best state effort 
without denying local competence, police power, rights or responsibilities. I believe 
the Oregon system has proven that such a course will succeed. 

"For this reason and because in our case at least the fire-i)roblem underlies all 
other possible steps, we favor a substantial federal appropriation for cooperation 
with the various states in forest-protection ajul replacement and will urge on our 
congressional delegation support of such a measure." 

I will close my remarks by reading to you a forest-policy for Oregon, advocated 
by the Oregon state board of foreslry. 

"Realizing the vital importance of the forests and of foi-est-i)roducts to the 
economic welfare of the people of the United States and especially to the people of 



103 

the »tate of Oregon, the state board cf forestry hereby approves the following fun- 
damental principles as indicative of its proper field of activity in assisting in solv- 
ing national aucl state forest problems, to the end that forest industries may be 
perpetuated and extended and that the people of the United States and of this stat.- 
may for all time have timber-supi)li(>s adequate for their needs. 

"Federal Activities. 

"1. The state beard of forestry recognizes the dr.sirability of maintaining the 
present national forests under federal control and believes in the blocking out with 
certain limitations of existing federal forest-areas, by purchase or otherwise, of ab 
solute forest-land in the interest of more efficient and economical managemt'Ut oi' 
existing forests. 

"2. The state board of forestry believes that congress sh(nild make adequate ap- 
piopriatiens to insure reasonably rapid forest replacement on all denuded national 
forest-land. 

"3. It is urged that congress make appropriations sufficient in amount adequately 
to protect all national forest-areas from fire and insect-depredations. 

"4. The federal government should provide for a comprehensi\e inventory of th<» 
forest- resouroes and absolute forest-lands, including: 

"A. The total supply of merchantable timber. 

"B. The total acreage of immature timber with the approximate time of its 
maturity and tlie estimated yield at maturity. 

"C. The total amount «f forest-land now unproductive. 

"5. The state board urges the maintenance and extension of airplane-patrol by 
the war department, in cooperation with the United] States forest service. 

"6. It is believed that the federal government should not only continue but 
extend its experimental work looking to better utilization and handling of forest 
products. Field experiment-stations should also be maintained throughout the west 
as a means for studying fire, grazing, reforestation and other problems. 

"7. The United States weather bureau has, for the past five years, rendered 
\ aluable serWce in forest-protection by forecasting protracted hot spells and danger- 
ous fire-winds. This service has not been brought to the highest state of perfection 
due to inadequacy of funds for conduct of studies aimed at perfection of the work. 
It is urged that adequate federal appropriation be made for study of methods in 
fctrecasting fire-weather. 

'"Federal and State Cooperation. 

"1. Since forests are a national asset and contribute to the welfare of all tjip 
people, the state board of forestry urges that liberal federal appropriations be made 
adequate in .■•i.mount to prevent and control forest-fires outside the national forest*, 
such appropriations to be met by equal expenditures within the state. 



104 

"2. Funds slionld be allotted jointly by tlie federal government nnd the state 
for the classification of fontst-land now outside national forests in order that no 
Innd better suited to agriculture than to forestry may be devoted to forest-pui-poseg. 

■"8. To facilit.ite niaiiagement. there should be in ()i)eration a i»licy of hmd- 
ezchange, on the basis of equal values, between the federal forest jservice and th« 

state of Oregon. 

"4. The federal guvernnuiit and the state should i>ro\ide a plan of cooperation 
til rough which forest nursory-sttx'k may be supplied to farmers, municipalities and 
other land-owners at cost ©f production. 

"5. In the interest of economy and efficiency, a cooperative agreement should be 
entered into through which the state would have the privilege of purchasing supplies 
and equipment used in tlie various branches of forestry work from the federal 
forestry service. 

"State Activities. 

"1. Such legislation should be enacted as will make possible, tlirough cooperatioii 
with the federal government and by dir<^ct state action, that degree of fire-preven- 
tion and control which will make forest-properties an insurable risk. The state 
board of forestry regards firc-prevontion and control of fundamental importance in 
any forestry program for this state. Fire-protection should be extended to all 
potential forest-land as well as thos|i' lands now carrying mature or immature 
t'.nil)cr-crops. 

"2. The state of Oregon should enter on a program sf acquisition, by purchase, 
gift, bequest or acceptance in trust, of logged-off or otherwise denuded absoliiie 
forest-land. 

"3. The state board of forestry commits itself to an aggressive campaign of 
education, by publications, lectures, demonstrations and) othenvise, to the end that 
the people of the«etate may be fully informed concerning the value and extent of its 
forest-resources, the damage done to immature and mature forests by fire, togetliet 
with the means which should be employed to bring about the full and continued 
utilization of forest-lands within the state, and to insure the full protection and 
wise use of the state's existing timber-supplies. 

"4. Systematic and continued investigations of insect-depredations should be pro- 
vided for, in order that feasible means may be discovered for minimizing timber- 
losses through this agency. " 

"5. There should be created a commission authorized to investigate and report 
upon the whole question of tlie taxation of forest-lands devoted to the reproduction 
of forest-crops, and of these crops during the period between establishment and 
maturity. 

"6. There should be a definite program of assistance to woodlot owners and to 
those who dfesire to establish forest-plantations for farm use, for commercial timber- 
productions, or for beautifying the public highways. 

"7. The state should lend every reasonable encouragement to the establishment 
of municipal forests for the protection of watersheds valuable to towns and cities 
ill maintaining their water-supply. 



105 

"8. Since Oregon heads all other states in tlie extent of its timber- resources and 
since the state has within its borders absolute forest-land sufficient in amount to 
enable it to maintain this position of supremacy, the state board of forestry believes 
it will be doing) a real service to the state in striving to maintain tliis position of 
leadership both by advocating the policies indicated above as well as in advocating 
other lines of activity when such shall appear desirable." (Applause.) 

Mr. PINOHOT. Before I relinquish the chair to the governor I would ask if 
there is any discussioil of this paper, and if not, now that I have, him at this dis- 
advantage, I wish to say that the chair would be very glad to entertain a motion on 
the part of any member of this conference expressing the opinion of the conference 
as to the gracious and able way in which the governor has presided over our 
deliberations — 

Mr. PETERS. Mr. Chaii-man, I make that motion. 

Mr. MORRILL. Mr. Chairman, I second the motion. 

Mr. PINOHOT. And as to his very notable contribution to the success of this 
meeting. Under no other circumstances could it have been as satisfactory as it has 
been with you, Governor, in the chair, and I know that all agree with me. 

The motion was unanimously agreed to. 

Ml-. COX. If it is in order at tliis time, I would like to announce the names of 
the committee on standardization of forest-protection : Messrs. Peters, of the national 
department of forestry ; Elliott, of Oregon ; and Mr. Pinehot, of Pennsylvania. 

Mr. HOWARD. It may not be necessary, but it occurs to me that a suggestion 
might be in order at this time that the committee would appreciate the assistance 
and the cooperation of the president of the State Foresters' Association, Mr. Cox. 
It appears that the middle west, where the problem is of great importance to be 
considered by this committee, is not represented, and I am sure after speaking with 
Mr. Pinehot, a member of the committee, I am sure the committee would welcome 
and hope that they may have Mr. Cox's assistance and collaboration in their work. 

Mr. COX. I shall b3 very glad to serve the committee in any way I can. 

Mr. GASKILL. Can not we all volunteer to help out that committee in any way 
that is practicable? I do not think anybody wants to hold back. 

Mr. PINOHOT.- I am sure, as one of the members of the committee. tJiat we 
would welcome such cooperation. I am sure we all would. 

The CHAIRMAN. What is the next business to come before the meeting? 

Mr. LOVEJOY. I am not at ail clear in my mind as to how the principle 
item of business before this conference, now stacks up. I am not clear and I should 
like to find out something as to the detail of the status of the bill which has b«en 
introduced, ©r is about to be introduced; which was or was not, or will or will not 
give us as much as one million dollars or more of Federal fire money. As I under- 
stand the situation, a bill has been framed by the chief of the forest service, and 
consent or approval for tlie bill has been obtained from the secretary of agriculture. 
Presumably it will become a part of the appropriation bill for the department of 
agriculture. If I am properly informed, or if I understand the remarks made by Mr. 



106 

Pinchot yesterday, there seems to be very grave doubt that this bill in its present 
form, will receive any consideration whatever. I also understood that the defects 
in the bill might be rendered. Just what that remedy might be I do not understand, 
aiid I should like to inquii-(> of Mr. I'eters, as the representative of the forest service, 
what his understanding' of the status of that bill now is. 

Mr. PETERS. Mr. Chairman. I am suprised that there should be the mystery 
about it that Professor Lovejoy would have you think. The facts of the case are 
those, which I thought were pretty generally known, that when the forest MTvicc 
estimates for the next fiscal year were sent to the secretary's office, in the custom- 
ary manner, they carried a million-dollar item for cooperation with the states in 
keeping foi'ost lands productive. The ono-lnindrt'd-and-twenty-fiNc thousand dollar 
Week's law item, the current appi-opriation for cooperative fire protection, was not 
included. We, along with all other bui^'-aus, were subsequently infonnod that any 
increase in current appropriations would have to be submittetl as general legis- 
lation, or supplemental legislation, outside of th<' regular agricultural appropriation 
bill. Consequently the item of one hundred and twenty-five thousand dollars was 
substituted for the niillion-dollar item, and that is tlw way the bill now stands. To 
carry out the secretary's request, the million-dollar item has been forwarded to the 
Secretary of tlue Treasury as a supplemental appropriation, whieJi, as I understand 
it, will come before the Houst; Committee along with the regular appropriation bill, 
and if approved' by the committee will be substitutrd for the one hundred-and- 
twenty-five-tiliousand ddllar item now in the bill. Is that perfectly clear? 

Mr. HARRINGTON. In other words, if the bill fails of passage all the mou' y 
of the Week's law is lost at the same time. Do I understand it that wayV 

Mr. PETERS. No ; if the committee does not approve tlie substitution of tho 
million-dollar item for the one-hundred-and-twenty-five-thousand-dollar item, the 
one-hundred-and-tvventy-five-thousand-doUar item stands. 

>rr. HASTINGS. May 1 ask Mr. Peters a question? In case the million-dollar 
item is approved by the committee and if rejected in the house or senate, do we then 
lose the one-hundred-and-twenty-five-thousand-dollar item? 

Mr. PETERS. If it were rejected by the house the bill would then go to the 
senate without the million-dollar item, and, of course, without the one-hundred- 
and-twenty-five-thonsnnd-dollar item. Now, what the senate does is another 
matter. 

Mr. I^VEtTOY. I should like to ask a questjion of Mr. Peters: What his undpr- 
standing is of the point made by Mr. Pinchot yesterday that the million-dollar item, 
as written, very plainly carries new language which would be subjected to a point 
of order by any member, and whether if that is the ease it is not very likely thut 
such point of order will be made, and if so as to the chances of that one million 
dollars? If aJiy member can stand up, as I understand it, and say, "I object, tjiis 
is new language," and, then the bill automatically goes out, is not the chance of 
getting that million dollar:; tremendously jeopardized? It certainly is so jeopardized, 
it seems to me. 

Mr. PETERS. There is some question as to whetlier that is new languag<\ 
and that point has not yet been cleared up, so far as I know. 

Mr. LOVEJOY. Surely this bill- 
Mr. PETERS. Oh, yes ; it is cooperati\ c fire-protection. 



107 

Mr LOVEJOY. I should suy it was, Mr. Peters. I presume every one is 
acquainted with the wording of the bill, but I should stiy that as a matter of fact, 
the fire-proteotion item is a minor matter as the language now stands, and that this 
language was .subjecting the million-dollar item to tremendous jeopardy. 

Mr. PETERS. I would hardly call it a minor matter, as we would spend most of 
the million dollars on fii'e protection. 

Mr. LOVEJOY. 1 should say that the item in this connectiou was minor. 

Mr. PETERS. I do not think that the committer would so consider it. 

Mr. LOVEJOY. In order to be perfectly clear may I ask this question : As 
to whether, in your opinion, it is likely that the bill in its present form would pass 
the house or the senate without objf'Otion being made to what I assume to be ne.v 
language? 

Mr. PETERS. It may stand a very good chance of passing. 

Mr. BESLEY. Isn't it so that if a point of order is raised about its being ne%v 
language the speaker of the house or the presideiit ef the senate rules wlH/thcr 
the point of order is well taken? 

Mr. PINCHOT. Yes, sir. 

Mr. BESLEY. And if he rules it is well taken, it will be dropped. If he rules 
it is not well taken, or in either case a vote will be taken of the body if they dis- 
agree. That is my opinion of the subject. 

Mr. PINCHOT. My understanding is, if I may say this much fiom the chair — in 
a moment I am going to ask Governor Olcott if he will kindly re-assume the chair- - 
in explanatioji of what at least has been the practice in so far as a point of lorder 
is concerned, that under the rules, unless they have been changed, always a point 
of order must be sustained if the language is new, and the language is liew, at 
least is was so in my time, if there is a word in the appropriation hill which was 
not there before; in other words, it does not depend in any degree upon the form 
of the expression or the purpose, but upon the actual langimge itself. At least that 
was so ten years ago when I was very familiar with this sort of tiling. 

Governor Olcott. may I ask you to assunui the chair? 

(JOVERNOR OLCOTT. Mr. Harrington will you kindly occupy tlie ciiairV 

Mr. PINCHOT. May I explain briefly the matter as I understand it? It being 

true, as I und(!rstand it, that any language which is different from the language 
which is already contained in the bill is subject to a point of order (and I si)eak 
with entire confidence in this matter as to how^ the rules used to be, because we got 
a good many of tiiesc things through in the old days) my belief is very strong that 
no matter whether or not all of us get behind this particular item, it will necessari- 
ly go out. As I understand from my special investigation of the matter in Wash- 
ington, men of great influence in both chambers are opposed to it. 



108 

1 want, if 1 may, to state the dift'erence of opiuion us to the fuudameutal policies 
involved, and I am so very, very much interested in securing the appropriation that 
I venture to make it, and you can then look at it as you choose. 

There arc four or five things that, as a rule, you have to have to get through an 
item of this kind that is subject to a point of order. It has to be brief; it has to be 
unmistakable in its language ; it has to be unobjectionable ; it has to be for an 
obviously necessary purpose ; and it has got to be substantially without support 
which would lead to criticism. I say this because we got through in the old days 
of the forest service a great many such items in different appropriation bills. 

Now, it just happens that this very language is subject to all these objections. It 
is long instead of short, it is difficult to understand instead of clear, it involves a 
big question of policy and tlierefore it is sure to meet with objection ; and in addi- 
tion to that, and entirely apart from the merits of what I am about to say, it em- 
bodies language prepared by great lumber interests, and therefore would naturally 
meet with objections. To my mind it is absolutely clear that any item to which these 
various objections are to be made has not a show in the world, and it has not a show 
in the world in addition because of the specific objection which will be made. 

I am keen as a briar to get this money, and I think that there is a chance of 
getting it if we go at it in the right way. I think there is no chance of getting it 
if we go at it in the wrong way. The only way in which we can get it is by putting 
the language in such shape that it will awaken as little objection as possible. f)f 
course, it is perfectly clear, at least it seems to be perfectly clear to all of you, 
that no great decision as to policy can possiibly be reached in an appropriation bill. 
If I wanted to try to put a national point of view over I would know with absolute 
certainty that it was absurd to try to do it in an item of an appropriation bill. 
It cannot be done. Things in congress are not done that way. Big things can only 
be settled after a great deal of discussion and on their own merits. There is no de>- 
sire on my part to settle this issue in any other way, but I would enormously like 
to see us get that money. I believe we have a chance for it if we go at it in accor- 
dance with the rules of the game, and so far as I am concerned I would like greatly 
to get behind a movement of the state foresters and try to get out of congress what 
we want. 

Mr. PETERS. I would like to correct Mr. Pinchot in one particular with refer- 
ence to the bill that he mentions. The item in question was not prepared by the 
great lumber interests, but the wording of that bill was prepared by Mr. William L. 
Hall. 

Mr. CHEYNEY. As I see it, it is no longer a discussion of a point or policy, 
or whether it is one thing or the other. It has gotten down to a point of the wording 
of a bill. It is whether the bill can be put in such shape that it can go through. 
It does not seem to me that we are justified, or would be justified, in putting up 
something that has a possibility of being objectionable, that is, if the objectionable 
features can be taken out ; and it looks to me as though they could be taken out 
without in any way influencing the effect of this bill. It might well be, as a perma- 
nent policy, as Mr. Pinchot says, that a permanent policy can not be settled in 
an item of a fiscal bill ; it has to be settled on another basis. The only effect that 
the difference between these two bills could possibly have would be on action that 
inight be taken a number of years from now, whether this matter is put in the 
present form in which it is worded in the bill or whether it is simply made in the 
wording as the Week's law has it. There Avould be, in my opinion, absolutely no 
diftertnce in the things that are accomplished in the next two or three years under 



109 

these two bills. We cannot hope to get any kind of control measure through in the 
next year, as I see it. It will simply be a question of getting more money to be 
expended in exactly the same way as the Week's money has been expended in 
the past, and if the wording of the Week's law can be retained and exactly the same 
things done under it as we can do under this bill here, tlien any wordings that we 
change now are simply so many hurdles that wc arc sticking in the way of its pas- 
sage. If we can stick to the old wording and stand a better show of getting the 
money, it seems to me that we ought to do it. Later on we can take up the question 
of policy. Later on we can find out what we want or what we do not want on 
this particular point. So far as this arguruient goes, it seems to mc to be a purely 
academic discussion of the wording of the bill. 

Mr. PINCHOT. May I perhaps contribute this to it? I was in W^ashington 
and saw Haugen, chairman of the committee of agriculture ; Kenyon, of the com- 
mittee of agriculture and committee of appropriations of the senate; Capper, who 
is one of the most influental menmbers of the committee on agriculture ; and Leii' 
root, who would have been speaker of the house had he remained there, and is one 
of the two or three leaders of congress. I asked their judgment, and Lenroot and 
Capper wrote me letters, copies of which I have in my possession, in which th(;y 
stated there was absolutely no chance whatever in their judgment of the passage of 
items of this sort, and Kenyon and Haugen authorized me to quote them to the 
same effect. That comes back to another question of opinion, if you like ; but it is 
the opinion of men who have some right to know. I think you have a right to 
know in detail what my best judgment is, and I can back that up so far as my own 
opinion is concerned and my experience of some years in dealing with these matters 
in congress. 

jNIr. PETERS. I would like to ask Mr. Pinchot, if htp is at liberty to give the 
information that he has secured from the gentlemen mentioned, whether they 
thought the W^eek's law fire-protection item could be increased to anything like a 
million dollars? 

Mr. PINCHOT. I am sorry to tell you that question did not come up. I am 
at perfect liberty to tell you anything they told me. I should say there is r.:> 
doubt, under all the circumstances, that we should take the wording that is .familiar 
to the House and already approved by it, and tie your appropriation to that word- 
ing. As I said yesterday, these appropriation bills pass during tlie final hours of 
the session. Nobody has much chance to enter into fine points, and decisions arc 
taken broadly. If a member don't like a thing he makes a point of order against 
it. If he m'akes a point of order against an item, you have a great deal better 
chance, obviously a great deal better chance, if the thing is in language that is 
clear and familiar both to the house and senate. 

Mr. MORRILL. Much of this discussion is a mystery to me, because I have 
been situated where I have not come into contact with it. I am probably denser 
than most of you in regard to the matter. I would like to ask Mr. Peters, if he is 
willing to inform me, just what the objection would be to the forestry service bill 
if it adopted the suggestion made by Mr. Pinchot and Mr. Cheyney and others. I 
do not quite understand. 

Mr. PETERS. Mr. Chairman, in answering the gentleman's question I would 
•ay that the Week's law item provides for one thing, fire-protection. The other 
language provides not only for fire-protection, but also for reforestation, manage- 
ment-work, and whatever else might be necessary to keep forest lands productive. 



110 

Mr. MORRILL. It covers a much broader fidd. 

Mr. I'ETERS. A very much broader field. 

Mr. CIIEYNIOY. So the n.se of tliis money for such inirposos as planned, 
which might very reasonably be construed as a matter of protecting navigable 
streams and certain otlier methods of fire-protection there, and possibly certain mat- 
ters of management, (whether they would be included in the Week's law or not,) 
would be largely a matter of. interpretation. 

Mr. PETERS. Absolutely not included. Tliat point has come up. 

nie CHAIRMAN. Ai-e thei*' any further remarks on this question? It im- 
presses me that this is a very vital question all the way round to some of us, and I 
know Mr. Morrill is in the same position tliat I am. There is a sort of mystery 
about the whole thing that I can not penetrate, and it seems to me that a good, 
full and frank discussion all the way round would certainly be adxisable. 

Mr. I'ETERS. Don't you think that Colonel Greeley's talk yesterday wag 
clear V And did you get a copy of his Madison talk? 

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, sir. 

Mr. I'KTERS. Have you read it? 

I 
^I'he CHAIRMAN. Yes, sir. 

Mr. PETERS. You could not understand it? 

The CHAIRMAN. 1 understood it perhaps. It seema (o me tliere is some- 
thing more l)a<'k of the whole subiecr. however, than I have n,i ither heard nor read 
.so far. 

Mr. liAZELEl'. Is not tlie whole tiling back of this sit.uati<jn, when you g>t 
light down to it, that there is a great qiu>stion coming before all the men interest- 
ed in forestry, the question of federal control or state centrorr Now, from what 
1 have read in the jjapers lately it seem to ine tliat there is very little chance of in- 
creased approi)riations being made by the present congress for any of the specific 
governmental activities. It seems to me that unless the department is going to 
show tliat the increased appropriation it is asking for is going to be used for its ac- 
tiN-ities it has not got a chance. I do not believe, no matter how important tiie 
question of fire is, that there is any chance of a million dollars being granted by 
this present congress. If that is all that is going to be put into the bill I thinii 
congress will stick to .iust what they have allowed before without any increase 
whatever. Now, that is the way I have gathered it from reading the papers, fi-om 
talking with several congressmen wiio are talking about the size of the budget; and 
tliat brings me down to th(> thought, as an old legislator, of what is going to happei 
if we go in with the; decided stand that we are going to take a millio.n dollars for 
state cooperation instead of one hundred and twenty-five thousand dollars, winkin< 
at the fact that we do not say anytliing at the time about state or federal control, 
but with a majority of the states at the present time I believe against federal con- 
trol. Now, I believe if we say that we will stand for the bill we wink at the fact 



Ill 

that we are asking for a million dollars which will lead to federal (control in th-' 
future, and that we are a great deal bettor off by taking the cue hundred and 
twenty- five thousand dollars for the next year and waiting until the fight is com- 
pleted to Bee whether we have federal control or state control, pt know in Massa- 
chusetts we feel there has been too much federal control, and it is no time for us to 
bring to any of our citizens any more talk of federal control in anything like the 
near future^' C6operationV All right. I think cooperation will increase our 
I budget itwe can cooperate with the federal government, but if tliere is federal or 
state control I should not have a chance to get this before our budget committ. (^ 
and get the money to carry out my part of the protection. 

Mr. PINCHOT. May I just say that I think Commissioner Bazeley misunder- 
stood the suggestion that I made? I am a strong believer in federal control, but ! 
believe a tendency to push a decision in any diri'ction in tliis million-dollar thin,.; 
would kill it at once. 

Mr. HASTINGS. I am glad to se(o the discussion run high, because I want 
your best thought here to express itself for my benefit. Perhaps I can not "get ..^ 
as quickly as the rest of you members have, or perhaps as quickly as the gentleman 
who, is occupying the chair, and I therefore hesitate to trespass further upon your 
time, but I imagine I see something beyond and beliind this controversy. I do no*., 
know, but I wonder if Mr. Tinchot could not tell me whether or not a few wonis 
ctuld be added to or subtracited from the proposed legislation Avhich would clear 
matters in his mind. I do not know that it would clear up tiie subject in my 
mind, but would it in yours, Mr. Pincliot? 

Mr. PINOHOT. If I may answer that question, I suggested yestfcrday, or in- 
tended to, that there are about two or tvvo and a half lines in one place and one 
word in another place in the bill which carry the state-control point of view. Tins, 
of course, could be eliminated. I am strongly of the opinion, liowever, merely as 
a matter of practical results, that if it were possible to secure a short form of word- 
ing such a form of words would have a better standing than a long and somewhat 
involved and difficult item. 

Mr. <:}ASK1LL. Are we not really agreed upon the essentials of this whoh- 
situation, which are that tliere shall be provided by Congress a greater sum of 
money available for cooperation with the states? Now Mr. Greeley, reprcscntinL,' 
the forestry service, has proposed something; the Secretary of Agriculture has ap- 
proved it, and it goes before Congress with their support. Mr. Greeley has stated 
his program in detail. It is clearly up to him. to my mind, to take such action as 
will secure the desired results. I do not believe that Mr. Greeley, any more than 
Mr. Pincliot, has any otlier desire than that, fundamentally and first of all, ther- 
shall be secured that million dollars, or as much of an increase over the present ap- 
propriation as Congress can be induced to rnako. I question very much whether in 
discussing this question here and in this way we are not more or less beside tii" 
point. The responsibility or obligation to do the necessary and proper thing is 
with the Secretary of Agriculture, supported by Mr. Greeley ; and very frankly I do 
not know that it matters a great deal what may be in the minds of some of us witli 
respect to the procedure on various underlying points. It all comes down to the 
one question of how Mr. Greeley and Mr. Secretary Meredith are going to secure 
what they want, and what we want, and what we are all agreed that we wall^ 
For one I feel very strongly inclined to say, let us trust the forestry service. 



112 

Mr. LOVEJOY. May I inquire of Mr. Gaskill what, in hit opinion, th« foreat 
service might do to further the passage of this bill, in view of the facts as related 
by Mr. Pinchot concerning the specific statement made by leaders of the house and 
senate? 

Mr, GASKILL. Answering Mr. Lovejey's question, it is perfectly obvious that it 
is their obligation. They have undertaken to carry this thing through. The means 
are clearly in their hands. We have a difference of opinion as to procedure, as Mr. 
Peters has suggested. Now, opinions don't go, and I can not but thinly (hat it is 
directly up to the people who are going to conduct the negotiations at Washington. 
We have all said we want the money. We have all said we are going to back the 
forest service in the efforts to get it. Now let us help them get it. Stand up. I 
don't mean hands off, if we can do anything ; but let us not do anything that will 
mess things up. 

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any further opinions V Is there any other buisness 
to come before the meeting 

Mr. PINCHOT. May I just ask one more question? And then I am through. 
If I understand the suggestion made by Mr. Gaskill, it is to the effect that we held 
off and see what the forest service is going to do and then get in behind it so far as 
we can. I am very strongly in favor ©f getting in behind it an helping it all I can, 
but I do believe, subject, of course, to the better opinion of everybody here, that 
unless Mr. Peters has got a fair impression of what this outfit wants he ought to bo 
given that before he leaves here so that he can report it to the authorities at Wash- 
ington. I do not know whether he has or not. 

Mr. PETERS. Well, beyond what has been said here this afternoon and beyond 
what was declared at the Atlantic City meeting, I do not know that there need be 
any additienal information. 

Mr. PINGHOT. If you are clear in your mind of what tliis crowd wants, that 
]>• all I wanted to know. 

Mr. PETERS. I think 1 have the point of view of the various State Foresters. 

Mr. PINCHOT. That is, on the big question. 1 mean on this matter of ap- 
propriation. 

Mr. PETERS. Yeu mean following Mr. Gaskill's suggestion that we leave it to 
the Secretary and the Forester to try to secure the appropriation from congress? 

Mr. PINCHOT. Here is wlmt I want to get at. I have one opinion, and I have 
e.xprcsscd it; some of the other gentlemen have opinions which they have expressed; 
some have opinions they have not expressed. I think it would bcj a very valuable 
tiling for the purpose of getting the money if you eould havo, either by private 
conversation with thos(! who' arc h(>re. or by wliatever way you choose to got at it. 
the opinion of each of us as to what he really thinks, in order that you may report 
that to the oue man, as Mr. Gaskill very wisely «ays, who has the right to in- 
troduce an item and push it. 

Mr. PETERS. There are some fState Foresters here whose views I do not know. 

Mr. HASTINGS. I got one of my questions answered. May I ask Mr. Pinchot 
whether or not certain things could be stricken from the bill which woujd relieve 



113 

fhe •ituation? As a secondary question I should like to ask Commissioner Bazeley 
^'hether or not tJie suggested omission would in any wny in his estimation jeopardizo 
the securing of the million-dollar appropriation? 

Mr. BAZELEY. I believe that unless you have an explanation to give in asking 
for one million dollars instead of one hundred and twenty-five thousand dollars there 
is notl the chance of a snowball on a red-hot stove of getting it from this congress, 
because I know. I have just been having a conversation with some men on another 
agricultural item which is absolutely necessary, that is, on the gypsy-moth item, 
where they are asking for a supplementary appropriation on account of an outbreak 
of the gypsy-moth devastation in three states, which if it is not handled immediately 
will come down, to the same proposition we are up against in Massachusetts; and 
they said even with that very great emergency tliey doubted very much whether any 
additional sums could be added to the gypsy-moth appropriation, but they though 
that on account of that emergency it might be. So that I believe we have some 
chance for the fire-protection, but there is no chance of getting additional appropria- 
tion for other expenses, 

Mr. HASTINGS. Do you think tliere is a chance for additional ai)i)ropriat()ii 
if it cuts off the state control? 

Mr. PINCH OT. Arc you asking me? 

Mr. HASTINGS. Yes, sir, if you please. 

Mr. PINCHOT. Tlie now language is the whole item that has been suggested, 
and the whole item is, in my judgment, subject to a point of order. The special 
point to which objection was developed during my trij) to Washington was that par- 
ticular feature which establishes state control, which is a very big new policy. 

Mr. HASTINGS. It seems to me that the logical thing to do, for I still want 
to keep my mind open for every tip and enlightenment, tlie logical thing to do would 
be to remove from the bill the particuler features which Mr. Pinchot found so ob- 
jectionable in the minds of certain leaders in the house and senate, but to include 
sufficient new matter which, in the judgment of Commissioner Bazeley, would insure 
the securing of a larger appropriation for cooperative work among the states. 
Now, I am not saying that that is my fixed opinion. I am simply suggesting it, 
and I am seeking for light and information. I have tried hard to see botli Mr. 
Pinchot's and Mr. Peters' side of the question, but I feel there are still some things 
that have not come out as plainly as th(;y might. 

Mr. BESLEY. I think the situation is something like this. The Week's law 
calls for an appropriation of one hundred and twenty-fivo thousand dollars. That 
is independent from this other measure. If this bill is introduced, and if we 
eliminate to answer Mr. Ilasting's question, if we eliminate that one item of coii- 
trol, still it would be open to the objections Mr. Pinchot mentioned yesterday, be- 
cause there would be some new language, and it would be thrown out on that ;.<•- 
count if objection was made. But does it lessen our chances of getting a substan- 
tial appropriation from congress by introducing this biU? I agree with Mr. Bazeley 
entirely that if we simply eliminate everything but fire-protection and go before 
them for an appropriation of a million dollars there is no chance of getting ii. 
They would say you have been getting along with one hundred and twenty-five thou- 
and dollars, and we do not know if you have spent exactly all of that; and with the 
present feeling toward economy the chances are we would not get any more now. 



We have the same chimce of getting oiie Luudred and twcuty-five thousand dollars 
and the additional one of presenting this new matter and enlarged program, with 
the possibility of getting one million dollars in place of one hundred and twenty-five 
thousand dollars. I do not think that we arc going to lesson our chances of get- 
ting one hundred and twenty-five thousand dollars through the Week's law by intro- 
dm-diig this otiier measure; but I rather think it is going to emphathize tho impor- 
tance of increasing the appropriation, and thereby increasing our chances of getting 
a great dval more money out of congress. 

Mr. PETERS. Mr. Chairman, 1 dislike tQ prolong the discussion beyond 
reasonable bounds myself, but I can not see how the passage of this item would in 
any way operate against the additional passage of such legislation as Mr. Pinchot 
or tlie committee of the society of American foresters has in view. Now, it strikes 
me that this is a pertinent question, Mr. Pinchot. If you were advocating Fedoriil 
control of child-labor, Avould you object to the states passing child-labor legislation".' 

Mr. PINCHOT. May I answer that question? Not in the .slightest. I hope 
the state will pass all the legislation it can to prevent forest devastation ; but if 1 
were advocating United States control over child-labor then I would object to the 
United States passing legislation which turned it over to the states. Do I mak-' 
the distinction clear? Whatever the states do of their own accord will be wel- 
come; but I would object, under those same circumstances, to the United State.-; 
passing legislation which turns the question ever to the states. 

Mr. PETERS. This legislation providles a cooperative fund for advancing 
money to the states if the states do certain things. It encourages the states to 
adopt adequate measures. I do not understand you about turning something ovt-r 
to the states which the states already have. 

Mr. PINCHOT. Let me give you a concrete illustration in this way. Secre- 
tary Mereditli told me that the object of this wording was to incorporate the policy 
of state control. That being true, as I, of course, assume it is since tlie Seoretarv 
said so, and since I naturally want national control — 

Mr. PETERS. As I see it, if at any time federal control seems desirable and 
the people want it, then irrespective of what the states may have done the Federal 
Government will take control. I fail to see how by encouraging the states nof,- 
any obstacle will be put in the way of Federal control in the future, provided the 
people want it. 

Mr. PINCHOT. Let me answer that in two ways. In the first place, it is 
no less than one hundred times easier to stop the passage of a bill in congress than 
it is to secure the passage, as Mr. Besley well knows. Moreover, once you have 
adopted a policy precedence is so strong that it would b(!Come very hard to prevent 
the i)assage of state control enactments. 

Mr. PETERS. Maybe congress would simply consider that as a .succession of 
steps in the enactment of legislation for Federal control. 

Mr. PINCHOT. In the second place, I do not think my information on the 
matter is of any consequence at all. I think the essential fact is that certain 

leaders have told us that that particular thing can not go through, and I think they 

have sufficient position so that you have got to accept what they say. We know, 



115 

so far as we can know anytliing, that the item which is subject to a point of order 
by a idngle man can not go through. 

Mr. HASTINGS. If I may have one more moment, I simi)ly wisli to apol >- 
gize, if you will, for occupying so much of your attention. I did it for this par- 
ticular reason : A month ago I did not understand the subject at all as I should 
and my effort to get enlightenment at Atlantic City failed. 1 have gotten a great 
deal of information today but I still do not understand the whole question sufficient- 
ly so tliat I will feel justified in getting behind this particular measure and crowd- 
ing it forward. I do not mean tJiat I am reserving whatever infinitestimal power I 
might have to help put a bill through congress. I am willing to do my part, but 
I did not know from the information I had which was the better way to push — for- 
ward or backward. I have been hunting hard for the information needed and 
have gotten enougli of it today to shape my future actions. 

The CHAIRMAN. The time has come for the closing of our session unless 
something further is desired to be considered. 

Mr. PINOHOT. May I say just a word to the foresters? I want to express, 
Mr Chairman, with your permission, the very great gratification that I am sure 
every member of the Pennsylvania Department of Forestry feels who has had the 
opportunity, and the most delightful one, of entertaining the visiting foresters. It h.us 
been to me a perfect delight all the way through, and it seems to me that our dis- 
cussions here together may lead to a repetition of the gathering. So far as I am 
personally concerned. I wish to apologize to you gentlemen for having been so fully 
occupied during the intervals between our meetings, and yet I know you understand. 
There have been certain questions not relating to forestry which had to be handled 
during this time, which have made it necessary for me to be away except during 
the actual meetings. 

I do want to express for my.sulf and my colleagues our very profound satisfaction 
that you were good enough to accept the invitation of the governor, and I hope that 
when the time rolls around Pennsylvania may once more have the opportunity of 
entertaining the association of state foresters under the presiding genius of the gov- 
ernor of Oregon. (Applause). 

The CHAIRMAN. I just wish to say I think I voice the sentiment of every 
man in the association of the delightful and profitable time that we have enjoyed 
here. It has been a real pleasure to associate with the state foresters. I carry 
back to the Pacific coast, back to the Pacific northwest, only the most pleasant 
memories ; and I want to personally thank each and every member of this confer- 
ence for his uniform courtesy and kindness to me. 

Mr. Pinchot the other day, just before I left for Philadelphia, asked me if I 
would serve as chairman of this conference. I thanked him and declined, although 
I appreciated the honor, for tlie i-eason that I have never presided at any thing of 
this kind. I finally screwed up my courage and told Mr. Pinchot that if you wish- 
ed me to serve I would do my best. You have been very kind to me, and for- 
tunately you did not get into complications on parliamentary law, or you really 
would have found out how little I know. 



116 

I want to thank yon from the bottom of my heart for th.> gracious way in which 
you have treated me. 

Mr. GASKILI;. Mr. Chairman, I move that the conference do now adjonrn. 
The motion was agreed to, and at 4:35 o'clock P. M. the conference adjourned. 



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